Score one for the Surge Guard

[Ken Wiseman]

I read with interst this post - I don't believe that our RV electrical systems are quite so sensitive as many would have us believe. I have related our recent experinces with low and high voltage on our RV oriented podcast which you may care to listen to at http://rvnavigator.com. The specific episode is number 13.

In short, I use a couple of UPS (untineruptable power supply) to keep sensitive electronics running under adverse power conditions. These are inexpensive and available at any electronics store and work to keep power constant. I don't like "surge protectors" arbitrarily cutting the power (like to the A/C), when the voltage is deemed too high or low. All though 56 volts is a bit low, your computer will shut itself off without damage and the fridge will cut over to DC without a problem.

With that said, it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the power supply - the best of the voltage/polarity checkers is the Good Governor. It has a large LED readout with clear polarity indicators. I leave mine plugged in full time.

This just IMHO, take it for what its worth - but it comes from experience with low voltage.

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by Ken Wiseman

I read with interst this post - I don't believe that our RV electrical systems are quite so sensitive as many would have us believe. I have related our recent experinces with low and high voltage on our RV oriented podcast which you may care to listen to at http://rvnavigator.com. The specific episode is number 13.

In short, I use a couple of UPS (untineruptable power supply) to keep sensitive electronics running under adverse power conditions. These are inexpensive and available at any electronics store and work to keep power constant. I don't like "surge protectors" arbitrarily cutting the power (like to the A/C), when the voltage is deemed too high or low. All though 56 volts is a bit low, your computer will shut itself off without damage and the fridge will cut over to DC without a problem.

With that said, it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the power supply - the best of the voltage/polarity checkers is the Good Governor. It has a large LED readout with clear polarity indicators. I leave mine plugged in full time.

This just IMHO, take it for what its worth - but it comes from experience with low voltage.

I appreciate your input and it is worthwhile. However, these refrigerators, like the hot water heaters, will not shut off. My refrigerator will go to propane only when the AC is completely removed. As long as AC is present, low or high, it will sit there and try to operate, as well as will the hot water heater.

As for computers, we have an inverter which takes over when the AC is not present. The Surge Guard will protect the entire unit by removing low power. If your air conditioner is operating and the voltage drops, man you are in trouble. The air conditioner will try to operate and the compressor will be ruined. That's why the Surge Guard will not reset for two and a half minutes after AC is gone; this prevents the air conditioner compressor from being ruined.

There are always those who will say that you don't need a Surge Guard; and you don't. I just feel that with what I paid for this unit seven years ago the Surge Guard price is extremely good insurance. What is #350 as compared to $45,000? It is only 8/10 of one percent. Small amount, I would say. I sleep well and don't have to wonder....

Again, these are my experiences after years and years of working with all kinds of voltages. Take it for what it's worth. I just want to give a heads up for those who may be interested. If you are able to live without this protection, by all means go for it, but I don't think we can tell others that they don't need it. Likewise, we shouldn't tell others that they have to have it. It's like they say on Fox News, "we report, you decide."

Orv

[richfaa]

Orv...you are a wise man...

[Ozz]

Orv, it sounds like you have an automatic switch gear for your power to switch over to the inverter.
My automatic switch gear has a contactor coil that will drop out with low voltage, that is how it senses the need to switchover to the other contactor with the inverter power running through it. That was what probably switched you to the inverter. There is an electronic time delay on the switch gear that stops 'short cycling' as well.
That is the way mine works.
If a campground with 2 legs of 120 volts drops a leg, or phase, in case of 3 phase power to the campground, the 50 amp power to a camper would only lose one leg of the 220 coming to the camper, leaving one buss bar 'hot' and one without power, but the one leg remaining will be at the 120 volts to the camper. You would just have maybe 1/2 of the camper without power. The converter, is case of the newer Iota's that we have, will protect the 12 volt system by it's internal protection electronics with high or low voltage. And at 56 volts, the relay would not pull in on the A/C system-just not enough volts to energize the coil.

[ols1932]

Sounds good Ozz, but at this fairgrounds, one phase dropped and the 50-amp power to our rigs dropped to a measured 56 volts. You may be right in theory, but this was a practical experience. Everyone on this power feed dropped their power to 56 volts. So you see, one leg was hot but greatly reduced. That's why my Surge Guard removed all power. The other rigs on this line were in trouble, but fortunately they were all home and were quickly able to disconnect power to their rigs until power was restored to normal. What would have happened had they not been home? It's hard telling. But I do know about six people who are going to get Surge Guards.

Yes, I have an automatic switchover to the inverter when the shore power is removed.

Orv

[RCMP03]

You have convinced us to get the SureGuard! We are having the dealer install a hard wire version at our warranty service in a couple of weeks. We have a gift certificate from the dealer that will help with the "ouch" factor on the pocketbook. But like several have said, good insurance when you look at the grand scheme. In the meantime, we will cross our fingers that the resort we are heading to this weekend is up to snuff!

[Ken Wiseman]

I don't want to be contentious, but I don't like to see scare tactics used to sell unnecessary equipment. For the sake of argument, I would like to provide some counter point the stated reasons for using the surge guard. Also, please understand. I do not question the integrity of the original poster. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.

1. Fridges use AC only for the heating element - it does care if the voltage is too low, it just will not provide the neat necessary to cool. As you know the circuit board and relay are always on the 12 volt side.
2. You mention that no one in the campground where this incident occurred suffered damage. Interesting - did everyone have a Surge-Guard?
3. Computers, especially laptops, are not very voltage sensitive. They will shut down at some point when the voltage is too low, but this is no different from the surge-guard arbitrarily when the voltage reaches a preset lower limit (which how it would work on most rigs).
4. Inverter cutover switches and sign-wave inverters are not common in 5th wheels and are expensive. Of course if your not home for a couple of hours this solution will also be depleted creating the same situation.
5. A/C will easily operate at 90 volts (and somewhat below), so why let the Surge-Guard make this decision for you? The A/C unit will shut the compressor down in low voltage situations.
6. Investing $350 to protect $45,000 would be a good investment, but buying a Surge-Guard is actually not protecting much, so may not be a good value. Certainly a situation in which it would save entire rig from destruction would be hard to imagine. In fact it may be an inconvenience in the long run causing more problems than it solves. I suggested a couple of ways to provide similar protection for much less over all cost.

I present these views for the other readers consideration, each of us makes our own decisions based on own assessment of need. But, please just don’t go out and buy a product based on one incident where the product was of dubious usefulness. I am sure that Surge Guard is a fine product and performs as specified, but is it cost effective for the average RVer?

[azstar]

Ken,

We really appreiciate your input. It's always good to re-think some of these issues.

The Co. that makes these things also makes them for the US Military. We all know the Military does at times buy questionable stuff, but I believe most of the time they make good informed purchases. (Call me niave). Are they wasting money on this stuff if it really isn't necessary? Inquiring minds want to know.

It would be great if someone (Hint,Hint) could give their Eng. dept. a call.

Here's the PH# 1-800-780-4324
Web. www.trci.net

If a knowledgeable MOCer were to call I think that info would be of great value to all of us. I have talked with them, very nice folks in the Eng. Dept. but not being an EE I'm out of my area of expertise.

Happy Camping

[ols1932]

Four journeyman electricians here on the fairgrounds verified the information I provided. I stand by my statements. These are not scare tactics trying to sell anyone anything. When the problem happens to a person, they may wish for a remedy.



I'm through with this thread. Anyone else that wants to join in, feel free.

Orv

[Ozz]

Very well put Ken. I totally agree with your assessment.
I also do not want our members to spend the limited retirement dollars we have, on a product that may be seen by many, as a device that has to be installed, or system wide electrical failure is a certainty.
Keep an open mind, do your research, and If it is worth the money to you, then make that decision.
I know those of you who have them are glad you do, and it gives you peace of mind.
Ozz

[Connorsmom]

I never had a Surge Protector hooked up to my old TT. Some friends of mine here at the CG took a hit on their electric box a few years back. It cooked EVERYTHING in their trailer. I've purchased a Surge Protector for the Monty because I have no desire to take any chances since I paid cash for this puppy. I also went through the RV Outlet that Cat 320 posted. If you deal with them, talk to a guy by the name of Don Lee, he is very helpful, and nice. I also purchased a lock hasp for it also. The Surger Protector is significantly less there than at CW. Is it a lot of money? I guess it depends on what you use as your point of reference. In the big scheme of things, I don't think it is. In 20 more days, this will be my home, I will do what I need to do in order to protect it.

Jan

[Cat320]

quote:Originally posted by Connorsmom

I never had a Surge Protector hooked up to my old TT. Some friends of mine here at the CG took a hit on their electric box a few years back. It cooked EVERYTHING in their trailer. I've purchased a Surge Protector for the Monty because I have no desire to take any chances since I paid cash for this puppy. I also went through the RV Outlet that Cat 320 posted. If you deal with them, talk to a guy by the name of Don Lee, he is very helpful, and nice. I also purchased a lock hasp for it also. The Surger Protector is significantly less there than at CW. Is it a lot of money? I guess it depends on what you use as your point of reference. In the big scheme of things, I don't think it is. In 20 more days, this will be my home, I will do what I need to do in order to protect it.

Jan

That lock will secure the SG to the trailer's 50 amp cord. Which means somebody could steal the whole works. I chain my SG to the CG's electrical post, then cover it with an old tire cover. If asked, I tell them the cover is to keep water out of the electrical connections.

[Garin1]

This is a good post and I must state something. As a "Certified Journeyman " electrician I question the 56 volts. Orv, Don't get upset yet. If there were only 56 volts at a fifty amp system it would be 56 volts on both legs and there would be considerable problems on the supply side. normally you will find one leg with a bad feed fuse or a loose wire but both?? Azstar, As for the Army buying surge protectors, it is true. But, they are only used in limited circumstances in the field where the power is supplied by an external generator. All of their sensitive equipment is protected by auto-shutdown UPS systems. I know this because I spent 2004-2006 installing electrical systems for the Army. Ken, You bring the light of rational to the forum. Keep it up.

[Steve and Brenda]

quote:Originally posted by ols1932

As it was, the rig didn't know anything happened because it switched over to the inverter automatically. If we didn't have the inverter, everything would have just turned off and the refrigerator would have gone on propane automatically.

I read this over and over, sounds to me your inverter acted as a large UPS for the vehicle but for that to happen I thought the inverter had to be active meaning it is drawing current all the time stressing your DC power system.

Not ready to install an inverter yet amigo, the schematic is still growing, but what is your configuration - model of the inverter, switch, etc.? Does the inverter engage automatically?

[sailer]

in these surger protectors do we buy the 30 or 50 amp type ,, will the 50 amp work when we only are using 30 amps

[azstar]

Hi All,
Found this which gives us a little more info. on the subject of possible low voltage damage. www.damouth.com/RVStuff/Autoform.shtml

Credentials? Check His Biography

(Sailer), Check on page 2 for an answer to your question.

Happy camping

[Cat320]

quote:Originally posted by sailer

in these surger protectors do we buy the 30 or 50 amp type ,, will the 50 amp work when we only are using 30 amps

50 amp works for both.