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Old 08-26-2006, 03:42 AM   #1
NASCARon
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Erie
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #4082
Montana Carrying Capacity

Has anyone else noticed that in the last 5 years the average cargo carrying capacity (CCC) of Montana fifth wheels has been cut by 30%?

In 2002 the average CCC was 3701 lbs. In 2007 it is 2605 lbs. Also
13 models increased the UVW, 2 models decreased, and 5 remained the same.
1 models increased the CCC, 14 models decreased, and 5 remained the same.

It seems that in order to increase the UVW, the CCC took the hit because the GVWR was not increased enough to cover the UVW increase. In 2002 6 out of 9 models had a CCC over 3400 lbs (and 3 over 4000 lbs). In 2007 2 out of 10 models have a CCC over 3400 lbs (and only 1 in the 3800 lbs range).

I wonder why??? Is Keystone trying to take the Montana line out of consideration for full time RVers? or are they moving into more of a Thor corporate mold... or both? Any insight on this?

God Bless
Ron, Tina & Sophie (The Mutt)
A Couple Saved by Grace
Full-timers starting June 2007

2001 Keystone Montana 3670RL
2004 Chevrolet Silverado 3500 LT, D/A, DRW, CC
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Old 08-26-2006, 04:47 AM   #2
stiles watson
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M.O.C. #2059
All the added items increase weight. Therefore, there is less available for cargo. To increase cargo capacity, they will need to beef up the axle load capacity and thereby increase costs. If total capacity remains the same, the weight of added standerd equipment items naturally reduces the optional capacity.

Stiles n Dianna
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Old 08-26-2006, 05:40 AM   #3
sreigle
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I had an email discussion with Keystone about how these numbers are calculated. I got a reply from one of the engineers. In my opinion, the method used to calculate the numbers is suspect and, I think, understates the ratings. Here's how they calculate those numbers:

GVWR - Axle capacity (12,000 lbs) plus pinweight of the unloaded rig.

CC - GVWR less the rig weight as determined by some other method.

CC, in my opinion, would be an accurate calculation if the GVWR were correct. However, GVWR does not identify the max the rig can safely weigh without being over the ratings of the frame, pinbox, axles, tires, and anything else that needs to be considered in the ratings.

I hope to get an opportunity at the rally to privately discuss this with someone at Keystone who can pursue getting these calculations corrected. This is just my opinion. I am not an engineer. But the GVWR calculations defy my sense of logic.

So, as the rig weight increases, CC will decrease. That would be correct but the numbers are low because I don't believe the published GVWR numbers accurately reflect what the rig can handle. If those numbers were correct I think CC would be higher. Keystone is probably losing some sales to Sunnybrook, Cardinal, and some others because of the low CC number.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
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Old 08-26-2006, 06:28 AM   #4
Wrenchtraveller
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I think that they are also being more accurate showing the correct weight on the newer models and this makes the payload appear smaller. I was concerned I would not have enough payload left on my 2955RL because I have Dual pane windows and also the 160 pound Splendide washer/dryer.

I was worried for nothing. I think we travel heavier than most people and with my water tank full, holding tanks empty and the basement storage areas full including a generator, way too many groceries and over 100 pounds of tools my rig came in at 12300 pounds, only 160 pounds over it's 12140 pound GVWR. I was happy as a clam. This load put 2600 on the pin and only 9700 on my Montana's axles which I felt were my coach's weak area. It has 5080 axles so I was well under the 10160 pound rating. Most of the Forest River products the same size as my 2955RL had 6000 pound axles so I was real concerned mine were too light. I think Montana payloads are fine for part-timers, full timers probably need more, but more payload in a unit like a 3400 might put a lot of units over the 23000 combined rating.

Don & Donna
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2005 Ford F350 V10 Lariat CC 4x4 LB SRW 11200 GVWR
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Old 08-26-2006, 06:34 AM   #5
Montana Sky
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Also remember that Keystone's target customer is the 3/4 ton and 1 ton truck owners. Many of the LDT out there cannot handle loads over 16,000 lbs. While the Montana is a very FINE unit, it cannot compete in with the larger/heavier full time units with Gross Vehicle Weights in the 18,000 - 24,000 lbs class.

My opinon is that Keystone needs to increase the axle capacity on of their Montana rigs. For those folks who have the ability to carrry more, good for them. For those of us who cannot, it would be our responsibility to load our coach within the specs of our personal tow vehicles. Again, just my opinion....


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Old 08-26-2006, 08:21 AM   #6
Cat320
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NASCARon...good to see you here, and not on the RV forum all the time.

To add to what Montana Sky said, IMHO, Keystone is trying to keep these things a light as possible to keep the 3/4 ton market. My 2007 3400 has a GVWR of 13975, so Keystone can advertise it (and the 3500 and 3600) as "under 14000 pounds!" Kind of like the car dealer..."Under $25000," with a price of $24999. We have beaten the weight issue to death, but Keystone wants to keep all the 3/4s drivers out there happy. If somebody is satisfied towing his Cougar with a 3/4, and wants to move up, Keystone wants him to move up to a Montana, not a Sunnybrook, and wants him to think his 3/4 can meet all the requirements for a Montana.

Not that Keystone is any different than the others. A Sunnybrook dealer (the owner) told us a 3/4 would be fine for one of his 2500 PW, 16000 GVWR trailers. Although we liked his rigs, we sort of mentally crossed him (his dealership) off our list as being too stupid, or too much of a liar to earn our business.
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Old 08-26-2006, 05:28 PM   #7
sreigle
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On the other hand, none of us are towing GVWR. We're towing actual weight. Having an accurate GVWR would not affect actual weight other than if it causes someone to load more in the rig. And in that case it's the owner's responsibility to match actual weight to TV capability. I still think the GVWR should accurately reflect what the rig can handle. But that's just my opinion.

I will know in about a week or so if we'll be over the 23,000 GCWR. I don't think we will since we're under it now. But I could be wrong. Time will tell.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

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