TV is under rated, now what?

[ugh]

Last week, I bought 2004 F250 with V10 and 373 ratio, and it came with Keystone Montana 3500RL. I assumed that the private seller would check the weight, but I was wrong. The truck can move 17,000 pounds, but take 6,000 pounds off for the truck itself, that leaves 11,000 pounds to tow. However, the camper weights at 13,850 pounds when fully loaded. So, that means the truck is moving more than 2,800 pounds than what it was rated for. I am not comfortable with that. Is there any modification I can do to the truck to increase its towing capacity, or do I need to replace the truck or the camper?

This is not exact calculations, but it is still significant over than what the truck can tow.

[Montana Sky]

There are no modifications you can make to the truck to alter the factory numbers. If you are not comfortable with the numbers as they are, then you need to replace one or the other. 3/4 ton trucks are usually rated to tow the weight, it is the kingpin weight where they fall short. I hope you are able to find a solution that works for you.

[racerjoe]

check with ford on changing the gear ratio to 4:10 or 4:30, Our 2003 with 4:10 gears towed 12500, our new one coming has the 6.2 liter with 4:30 gears and it bumps up to 15000. The truck is the same they can look at the old info for that year and see what to change.

[Art-n-Marge]

Bear with me... here's the long story. I have an '06 3500RL and had an '04 PSD, not the V10.

There are several things to consider and these may not satisfy what you need. If you are saying the gas version of the truck supports a CGVWR of 17,000, this leaves only 3,150lbs for the TV.

My current 2006 Ford truck weighs over 8,000 lbs EMPTY! And that's just me, the truck, the currently installed accessories and full fluids (full fuel tank). Even if you could verify your truck weighs 6,000lbs which is almost 3,000 lbs over what you need to be at (only the scale will tell you) to satisfy the CGVWR, then by the time you add the hitch, your passengers and any other stuff you carry in the truck you are overweight. Maybe your gas truck weighs a lot less than my later model diesel but 3,000 lbs is very difficult to overcome using your numbers.

There are legal and valid ways to improve the GVWR of your truck and still may not get you where you need to be especially in your case. I was able to upgrade my PSD F-250 to an F-350 by purchasing and installing a factory overload set (spring, brackets and bumpers) AND larger wheels and tires over what an F-250 uses. In my case, this is all that could be done. I did not complete the upgrade by obtaining a new VIN with the new ratings because it was more than I wanted to spend. I am legal to tow at the new ratings for PERSONAL use only as long as I keep the paperwork for the work done. Note in doing this, I was able to upgrade the FAWR by 600 lbs, the RAWR by 900 lbs and the GVWR by 1,500 lbs, but the Tow Ratings and CGWVR DID NOT CHANGE! This means upgrading your specific vehicle probably won't help you either.

As for upgrading the gears, according to my visit to Ford to analyze what could be done, changing the differential was NOT an option because there are other components in the truck that must change in order to support the higher gear ratios, for example, the axle, drive shaft, U-joints, etc. I don't know the specifics because I did not need this upgrade.

A rating for a truck is determined by many things and not just the engine and transmission. When you realize that oftentimes the same engine and transmission are used on completely different models of truck, it's not just the engine and transmission that are the limiting factors. We do already know that a diesel has more capability over a gas engine anyway, but there are many other components and these might not be able to installed to get you what you want like brakes, shocks, wheels, tires, axle, differential,drive shaft, u-joints, springs, and other things.

Before you run out and purchase other aftermarket components you do need to know these by themselves DO NOT help because adding them just makes some other component the weak spot and you may not realize any gain from what you purchase. Unfortunately, the sales people will tell you otherwise to make the sale. For example, I thought air bags helped (the sales man at Ford said so), then my suspension shop and a call to the air bag company said "No" and some suspension shop salesmen will tell you they do. I do have air bags and what they do is improve the existing ride and help me raise the rear end so that headlight aim is improved. It took me several months to investigate and then get this clear and well understood. It is NOT the salespeople that can be held accountable since weight compliance is the vehicle owner's responsibility. Searching for the fine print for these products will confirm what I've said.

I'm afraid in your instance, if you want weight compliance, you need a new truck or lighter trailer like what I had to do (and still fell short until the upgrade). Like Racerjoe states, an older truck is pretty much underated and any improvements will be money wasted in your case. Newer trucks are beefier and therefore more capable. I got lucky I was able to upgrade but I was further ahead with the diesel and wasn't off by much. Note, my 2004 F-250 PSD (the gas version had even lesser ratings) was not enough truck for my newer Monty but my 2006 "F-350" is now just fine for personal use, but I initially messed up by buying an F-250.

I hope this helps.

[bigmurf]

Don't tow to the mountains. Stay close to home. JMHO

[racerjoe]

One other thing that I forgot. Towing capicity for a 5th wheel differs from a pull behind. you have to know what the pin weight is. that is subtracted from the towing capacity. so you can "technically" tow more weight.you are saying that you can only tow 11000,but in reality it might be 12000 or more due topin weight. To ease your mind you need to get accurate fiqures from Ford,also if you can,find a scale and do a weight check to see total and also pin weight,and camper weight,that will tell you what you are towing. Just take one step at a time,and enjoy your trailer.

[1retired06]

Art hit the nail on the head. The 250,350,and 450 trucks for example all use the same diesel and transmission, but different tow capacities. The difference is in the frame, differential, brakes, suspension, springs, etc. You will be overweight pulling with what you have. Having said that, I see 250s and 2500s pulling heavy trailers all the time. One thing to keep in mind is legalities. I have had two minor accidents pulling fifth wheels (neither one my fault!). One was in Missouri, one was in Texas, and in both cases the police checked and documented weight of the trailer against my tow vehicle. Once in California, I was pulled into a rest stop by the highway patrol for a spot check. If overweight, you were immediately parked.

[ugh]

quote:Originally posted by 1retired06

Art hit the nail on the head. The 250,350,and 450 trucks for example all use the same diesel and transmission, but different tow capacities. The difference is in the frame, differential, brakes, suspension, springs, etc. You will be overweight pulling with what you have. Having said that, I see 250s and 2500s pulling heavy trailers all the time. One thing to keep in mind is legalities. I have had two minor accidents pulling fifth wheels (neither one my fault!). One was in Missouri, one was in Texas, and in both cases the police checked and documented weight of the trailer against my tow vehicle. Once in California, I was pulled into a rest stop by the highway patrol for a spot check. If overweight, you were immediately parked.

Can you be more specific about what the police checked for? Did they checked to see if you were towing within the towing limits, or did they check the weights per axle for your truck? From what I understand, the law does not care about how much if the truck can tow. They care about the weight per axle and if it is over, then that is a problem as it is too heavy per axle and it affects the handling and braking. Let me know. Thanks.

[Buffpilot]

My old 1999 F-250 with V10 was rated a combined 20,000 with 4.30 axled ratio. I put air bags on as the pin weight was 2000lbs. not cheap but a 4.30 rear would give you a lot more pulling power.

[steelpony5555]

Ok finally found specs googling. Your truck has a gross of 17k but is only rated to tow 10,800 lbs... Either way you are overloaded. Sounds like a new truck in your future.

[ugh]

quote:Originally posted by steelpony5555

Ok finally found specs googling. Your truck has a gross of 17k but is only rated to tow 10,800 lbs... Either way you are overloaded. Sounds like a new truck in your future.

I am going to change the ratio to 4.30, which will add 3,000 to towing. I am still concern about the payload and pin weight.

[Art-n-Marge]

steelpony, is that 10,800 lbs a fifth wheel rating? The fifth wheel rating would be higher but IIRC the fifth wheel rating for a 2004 F-250 diesel was about 13,500 which still too low for the rig weight of 13,850 anyway.

You should be going by the GTWR which on my '06 3500RL is 14,040. This is why I upgraded to the newer '06 F-250 that had much better tow ratings especially for a diesel (15,200#). However, even though the tow ratings are the same as the F-350, the F-350 is better for residential fifth wheels since there is more weight at the pin and this is where I messed up. Upgrading the F-250 suspension, wheels and tires to the F-350 equivalent is what now allows me to carry more weight in the truck (like higher pin weights for a fiver).

Weight compliance is the law. However, it is not very well monitored, checked, or enforced for RV vehicles. This is why it's owner beware (or be aware). Salesman will sell you whatever they want but it's the owner's responsibility to know when it's wrong! Rest assured if you are caught, you won't be going anywhere and in the event of a mishap you will be liable even if it is not your fault. It will probably be argued you should not have been on the road for whatever mishap occurs.

When checking by eyesight, LEOs will look at sag and how one's driving to estimate weight compliance. I have airbags to correct my ride so when I was overweight (by about 400#s) it was disguised but this doesn't mean I was compliant (which I wasn't). I understand if you cross in to Canada, and you are sagging (even within weight limits), they will check. In some places I hear they check all the time, but I have never crossed into Canada with the rig and have only gone by hearsay and other person's experience. I don't know how any LEOs can check weight compliance without access to a scale so you can only imagine you might be in for a wait while the right equipment is sought. I'd sure like to be compliant at the time so when the proper equipment shows up I will be able to drive off when they are finally done with me.

One of these days and when enough people are killed or injured by the public, the enforcement will increase. Right now this is regularly done with big rigs and commercial applications but I fear with the size and weight increases of RVs and mishaps this may change.

Be safe everyone!

[Art-n-Marge]

CAUTION: For the post that had the 4.30 diff, Ford is notorious for adding components and not labeling for it. For example, besides the diff change Ford may have included the extra overload spring and the truck might have larger tires and wheels and maybe even larger brakes. You also mention your truck is 1999 which is vastly different than 2004.

ANOTHER CAUTION: ALL weight ratings must be in compliance. If you increase all the components to achieve the 20000 lbs of CGVWR you must also ensure that the other weight ratings are maintained, like FAWR, RAWR, GVWR, Wheel and tire ratings and Tow Ratings and side to side weight. The ratings are the maximum for that area, but this typically means somewhere else needs to by under to allow for that rating to be achieved. They ratings work together!

I compared my 2006 F-250 to a neighbor's 2006 F-250. The only thing he had changed for his truck is he got the larger wheel and takeoffs from his brother's F-350. I then pointed out his truck was equipped with the overload spring hardware (mine wasn't) and he was very happy to find out he had increased the GVWR quite by accident. Even though his F-250 has the F-350 suspension components it was labeled with a F-250 emblem because the tires and wheels were too small to allow the higher rating out of the factory. I did confirm that Ford does this all the time to meet quotas for models built and I'm only taking about 2006.

There are major changes to the truck between 1999 and 2004 so look close and thorough. I went to two Ford dealers to get the diagrams, parts lists and ratings for all this information. It's not just about the horsepower or the diff ratio like we've mentioned. You might find that it's cheaper to sell the truck you have and use the money towards a newer, more capable truck especially after you've done everything and it's not enough and therefore money wasted.

I will strongly recommend you must confirm you check all components that are required to improve the GVWR. Oftentimes, it is several things you must do that just the one you found quickly. For example, the cost of upgrading the diff might include a bunch of other things to achieve the rating you want.

My posts are long on this subject because I am summarizing over 2 months of daily analysis and what I discovered to solve my problem which is far less complicated than the OP's. Don't forget to keep the raft of paperwork and receipts of whatever you do because if you are stopped by LEO, you'll need to produce it as part of their investigation to ensure you are good to go. Kinda makes you wonder what the real reason the original TV/RV owner sold this.

[steelpony5555]

Yes that was 10800 lbs for a 5th wheel tow rating and a 4x4. The 4x2 was 11,200 lbs. I thought that was kinda low even for a gas 3.73. According to Fords chart there is no difference in towing cap. from TT to 5th wheel?????? If you bump up to a 4.30 rear you go to 13,800 lbs towing cap and 20,000 GCWR. Here's what I found https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/...D_F250_350.pdf Even still the gas motor at that weight is gonna do a lot of shifting and high revs on grades. If you live in a flat area and don't do a lot of long distance travel it will probably be ok.

[1retired06]

In response to the question re California spot check, there were no scales involved. The Trooper had a manual which listed tow capacities of vehicles, he looked up mine, and compared against the Weight tag on the side of the trailer. As long as the tow vehicle exceeded that, I was fine.

[camper4]

I forget the state but, I got pulled over into a truck weight station. They weighed us and waved us on. I don't know what they were looking for but they sent us on our way.

[Emmel]

Just remember, upgrading a F250/2500 to the F350/3500 specs still does not make you leagl. You still have the F250/2500 badge on the truck and that is what they look at. But as long as you are satisfied, that's all that matters.

[Art-n-Marge]

Sorry to slightly disagree Emmel, but my modified truck is "legal" but not certified, for California law since this is applicable to where the vehicle is registered. I was quite surprised this was allowed but when I walked over to the CHP office after I found the DMV personnel completely clueless about this, I found the same unknowing personnel at the CHP office, but we were able to look up what is legal since the officers admitted "shoot, we're supposed to know this stuff".

A modified truck has legally upgraded their GVWR as long as ALL components required to make this possible are installed and the documentation showing this work is done is kept WITH the vehicle at all times for the particular owner. The components must be certified by the manufacturer, so in using Ford parts legality is easily maintained (In my case, an overload spring, brackets, bumpers and hardware and larger wheels and new tires to support the new weight ratings). This is why aftermarket parts are NOT recommended since they are typically not certified.

If this modified vehicle is going to be used at the new ratings for towing others' trailer or carrying others' gear, the vehicle must get recertified. The recertification includes verification of the components and work done and a new VIN is issued to denote the new weight rating. It was interesting that the emblems did NOT have to changed because they are considered decorative, but like Emmel mentions if you want to minimize getting stopped and checked, then change them, too. In California, this also means the DMV fees will be higher because you are heavier on the roads. If you DO NOT recertify the vehicle can ONLY be used for personal use. In my case, I did not want to incur the cost of the certification, nor the DMV fees and the law makes allowances for this (personal use only). If the personal truck was going to be used for business and at the new weight ratings, then recertification would be required. Note that I'm only talking about California. I did not check any other state.

The CHP officers thanked me for making them look this up and I don't think they were rookies. None of them realized any of this, nor had any of them been involved in weight compliance. Funny how one of them said, "I thought all you needed was some air bags". I informed him that I had air bags but learned air bags help the ride and raise the rear end so the headlights down for night driving, but that's their extent. It's sales or service people that make the other claims.

The bad news is that not all vehicles can be upgraded to include all modifications to get an upgraded TV. The owner is responsible for knowing all that is involved and how the weight ratings interrelate. In the OP's case even if getting to the 20,000 lb CGVWR, the RAWR or GVWR might not remain underweight and my 2006 F-250 had better ratings and still didn't make it until I completed the modifications. That older vehicle with a gas engine may not make it and it will struggle carrying that weight.

[Emmel]

Art, tell that to the lawyer after you're involved in an accident. I'd argue all day in court your truck is still a F-250!

[Art-n-Marge]

I'll be glad to tell everybody who needs to know, which is why I did all this work and research. I never said I did not have an F-250 and I agree that I still have an F-250 just like my signature states. That's not the issue. The issue is to be weight compliant which is all that was done and there are right ways to do this and wrong ways to do this. As an owner I was able to remove the negligence of liability of towing overweight and knowing I was overweight, but ignoring it.