Lubricity and ULSD

[c5racer]

The reason for adding additives to the fuel is to help keep the injectors and the pump lubed. It has nothing to do with the diesel internals.

[bsmeaton]

Your right Pete - and I stand corrected. Had my brain on 2-cycles

Montana Sky - The tailpipe tests are designed to address the top 1% of polluters, and the criteria is adjusted based on the data received from the roadside sampling studies. As the greatest test criteria in Colorado is particulate size through optical measurements for diesels, your truck will PASS unless its throwing beer cans or chunks of coal out the tailpipe. I know there are extremests on both sides, but IF I were a tree hugger, I would say you are being self serving in putting additional pollution in the air so you can avoid a $5K maintenance cost on a vehicle that has potentially already served for 150K miles. But then, I'm not a tree hugger or I'd be driving an electric Honda and staying in a tent .

[Eagle Man]

As stated, ULSD is down to 15 PPM of sulphur, however the manufacturers put an additive in it to bring the lubricity back up to the level of the LSD, they just don't do it with sulphur..

[dsprik]

quote:Originally posted by bsmeaton

Montana Sky - The tailpipe tests are designed to address the top 1% of polluters, and the criteria is adjusted based on the data received from the roadside sampling studies. As the greatest test criteria in Colorado is particulate size through optical measurements for diesels, your truck will PASS unless its throwing beer cans or chunks of coal out the tailpipe. I know there are extremests on both sides, but IF I were a tree hugger, I would say you are being self serving in putting additional pollution in the air so you can avoid a $5K maintenance cost on a vehicle that has potentially already served for 150K miles. But then, I'm not a tree hugger or I'd be driving an electric Honda and staying in a tent

Brad, you probably need to group me with Dave as an anti-tree hugger , because I would probably do would I could to save even $3,000 - let alone $5,000 - of potential maintenance... I also have 154K on my 2002 D/A and going strong. Using the Diesel Kleen from Wally World on occasion.

[Montana Sky]

Brad,
As you know; I appreciate your knowledge, wisdom, and experience in all subject matters. However, I have found no information indicating that using a diesel fuel conditioner to increase lubricity will increase the amount of pollutants a truck will deliver to the air we breath. If you have any links to such information, please, send them to me. I would like to read up on all information regarding this very topic.

I am also curious to hear if any other diesel owners noticed a drop in fuel economy after switching over to ULSD fuel?? I noticed a drop of 2+ mpg. This is where I really disagree with the new fuel...If I drive 100,000 miles at 20 mpg, that equals out to 5,000 gallons of fuel. Decrease my fuel economy by 2, take the same distance 100,000 miles at 18 mpg, that equals 5,555 gallons of fuel. I am using almost 560 additional gallons of fuel to cover the same distance as 500ppm diesel fuel provided me. How are we helping the environment when it takes more fuel to do the same job? Again, I would like to get my hands/eyes onto any information about this very topic. One can never gain too much knowledge...

[bsmeaton]

Dave and Dave-

I don't have any data to show you - I was just presenting it as an alternative consideration before using additives. Now I am pretty darn sure that 2-cycle oil or transmission fluid would increase emissions.

You make an excellent point on the additional fuel consumption, and it is yet another example of the trade off that can occur with each change, sometimes with the alternative being worse than the original.

As for aftermarket stuff - I remain leery of all those peddlers out there trying to sell me something I don't need, and all those folks that swear by it only to find out years later it was a money making hoax!

[lwcdg]

Montana Sky, I dropped between 2 to 4 mpg on the 95 ford. this is one of the reasons I was looking into a new truck.

Brad to my knowledge here in IN we do not test diesels, yet. I also know from experience that the truck plate can exempt trucks from emissions testing here. Also in our most "intelligent" state only the areas of large populations are required to test. So Elkart can run any type of emissions they want and are legal in doing so (tin cans and clumps of coal being dropped from exhaust is ok).

Over on Diesel Place forum it seems to have found that if you take off the exhaust on the new trucks and straight pipe it you will gain about 5 mpg. This will require other mods also.

I also agree with Montana Sky if the US gov't wants us to have cleaner air do not handcuff me into buying a product that gets worse mpg just to use a lesser pacticulate fuel.

The car companys aren't any better as they state in the warranty info do not use any biodiesel higher than B20 (it may be B5).

Just my 1/2 cent tonight,
Chuck
ps aren't the injectors on the older GM trucks warranted for 200,000 mile. this was done because of issues on the 04 or 05 trucks. This seems to be what I remember. If I'm incorrect please excuse my error.

[ols1932]

Montana Sky,
I noticed NO decrease in mpg. Wonder if it has something to do with the Banks system I had installed in 2002.

Orv

[Leaseit]

I spent a lot of time very carefully reading that Diesel Blog report about ULSD. Maybe i need new glasses, but no where did it say what the Micron Wear was for LSD using the High Frequency test. Was it 550 microns, 480, 320... take a pick.
Point is, if i can't define where i was before (LSD Microns of Wear), how can i say where i am now is bad(ULSD Microns of Wear).

Anyone know what the wear test results were for LSD ?

[skypilot]

Don't know about the amount of additional wear caused by ULSD but I can tell you that Albuquerque had several 2004 - 2006 Dodges sitting on their dealers lots waiting for resolution -- Star refusing to warranty - claiming bad fuel was used; dealer says clients say otherwise. (I was in for oil change today and was talking with an old classmate of mine that works there now). He told me that they are having a lot of problems with Star covering advanced wear problems that their diesel tech feels is caused by the low lubricity of ULSD. They both told me to be sure to add something at least every other tank (that way I always have something additional).

[happy campers]

It seems like there is no shortage of differing opinions on the use of additives; I choose to use one. Just a "feel good" thing? Maybe, but until the new ULSD has a track record, good or bad, I'll continue to do so. GM wants you to use Stanadyne; is it a coincidence that they are also one of their suppliers? Don't know, but they further state, no demulsifiers or alcohol, and bio up to 5% is OK. That opens up a number of other options. I've paid too much for my truck to not try to do something to protect my investment. And anything might be better than arguing over a future warranty claim. Anybody remember when reformulated fuel was mandated in select areas of the country? That caused endless headaches for people with older vehicles that needed carbureter rebuilds as a result of using it. Newer vehicles have updated fuel system components that are tolerant to the alcohol in the fuel. This is more government protecting us from ourselves, but it's still a free country, and no one is forcing anybody to use additives. Don't brush your teeth if you think the flouride that is put in our drinking water will protect your teeth! Just my 2 cents.

[Gene Chaltry]

My 03 Duramax has been performing flawlessly on ULSD. I now have over 20,000 miles on ULSD and I have yet to have any problems with my Duramax. I have not noticed any difference in performance either.

[Dave e Victoria]

As others have said, I see no difference whatsoever in milage between low sulpher and ultra low sulpher fuels in our 2006 GMC D/A. Also, having made a lot of money in Marketing, I am a real cynic when it comes to claims for addatives. It's sort of like asking a nuclear scientist how to make peace. Invariably, he will tell you to build a bigger bomb. Or, if you ask an insurance sales man how to protect your retirement, he will tell you to buy life insurance. The problem is, all of the experts in this game have an ox to gore. That problem is compounded by the fact that none of us users have anything to go on other than anecdotal experience -- and some of us get real passioate about it.

I think the bottom line is if you feel good about what you are doing and can afford it, keep on doing it. At the end of the day, given the distance to the stars and the age of the planets, what ever you do won't make much difference.
Dave

[indy roadrunner]

Dave I am with you on the previous post. If it makes you feel good then do it but don't force your opinions on others. Myself I work for a very large trucking company with one of the largest fleets across the states. We use USLD in our bulk tanks and another thing - 90% of our engines are Cummins ISX's. We do not use a fuel additive other than anti gel for the northern states in the winter. I like what my GMC service rep told me the last time I had service. "You can use an additive if you want to but I am not telling you to do it".
So it seems we all have choices - do what you think is right.

[Karl]

My experience is the same as the last few posts. I have a 2003 GMC, and have put on 10,000 plus using ULSD. I have not been able to notice a difference in MGP. Interestingly, when we bought a new Montana (2008 3600RE to replace our 2002 3295RK) I feel that the mileage has improved over the old one, but that's only after about a 1000 miles towing.