I am disappointed in Keystone

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

You Gotta read the whole thing...click on corporate information http://www.thorindustries.com/

Rich, if that is aimed at me, please explain your point. I see nothing to change my mind. Many large corporations are divided into divisions. Does that somehow mean they do not manage the manufacture process. Don't think so. I worked for a large utility company, many divisions (not just electricity), but we all answered to the corporate office.

[Leaseit]

Can i make a couple suggestions for what ever its worth...

Read these two sites about Willim Edwards Deming and how japan took his teachings and turned Quality in to Job One..

http://www.wtec.org/loyola/ep/c6s1.htm

http://www.deming.org/ Read the tab Called "The Man"

Remember, Gm Begged him to come teach them in the late 70's and he said no, your not really interested in quality, just the Buck. He finally agreed 5 years later under HIS TERMS.

Hello Thor, HINT HINT HINT

[PowellsMonty]

My opinion, and I know what that's worth and whats its like, but, it is a shame that people need to contact the manufacturer because their dealership, or other dealerships that sell Montana's, don't take care of the problem. Dealerships should be the one that solves the problem, for the customers satisfaction, repeat business and referrals.

[bsmeaton]

Well said Mike

[richfaa]

The point was that Thor does not directly build Rv's. They do manage companies that do build Rv's,Cmdrdewey's post was accurate.His point was that Thor does not build Rv's but is a holding company that owns many different RV companies.They certainly set policy and management guidelines. The various companies operate independently same as Cadillac operates independently but under the GM umbrella. Same as my division of the Federal Aviation Adm operated independently but under the umbrella of the Department of transpotation. Your observations are also accurate but two different issues are being addressed.

[stiles watson]

I wonder how much most of us understand the relationship between the manufacturing process and the economic system. Under the Demming method the process was driven by a customer service motive, believing that satisfied customers would increase business over the long haul. Our current economic environment is driven solely by profit in the short term, i.e., answer to the stock holders, not the customer.

Short term profits are more important than long term outcomes or customer satisfaction. "What am I going to show in the next quarterly report?", is the most important question. Said another way, if there is a conflict between customer satisfaction and desired/demanded short term economic outcomes the customer loses. The system is short sighted. We have what we invented as an economic society.

[bsmeaton]

also well said.

Attention to QA helped make a legend of the Honda name that they still live on (even though the 2008 Accord hit the $35K mark and has outclassed itself into the big boy market), but aren't they in trouble right now as well?

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

The point was that Thor does not directly build Rv's. They do manage companies that do build Rv's,Cmdrdewey's post was accurate.His point was that Thor does not build Rv's but is a holding company that owns many different RV companies.They certainly set policy and management guidelines. The various companies operate independently same as Cadillac operates independently but under the GM umbrella. Same as my division of the Federal Aviation Adm operated independently but under the umbrella of the Department of transpotation. Your observations are also accurate but two different issues are being addressed.

I suppose he was addressing my mention of the "Jazz by Thor" fifth wheel. I suppose it is built by the Thor California division. If I recall correctly the decals on it actually bear the name of Thor. Oh well, it's no big deal. I just wanted to be sure I understood your point.

I think Stiles hit the nail on the head!

[richfaa]

I understand yours and others who do not have a warm and fuzzy feeling about Keystone/ Montana. I am one of them. We have had many problems due to poor workmanship and lack of quality control. We paid big bucks for this 3400 and should have got better, Here I am on the phone with Lippert and Dometic, vendors yes, but the product is in my Montana,when I should be out in my lawn chair with something cold or over at Disney having a good time. But reality is that the problem is Rv industry wide.. Go to some of the other brand forums and you will see the same problems and frustration. We take our frustration out on Montana because we have one.The reality is also that we have had nothing but first rate service from Keystone/ Montana on all of our problems both large and small. I can not explain why most do but many do not. We have NEVER had a problem with any of them even some of the ones we have heard horror stories about. It is my experience that it does no good to rant, rave, get angry, etc because after that is done..you still have the problem. Sometimes I would like to go into a corner and scream. But I stop count to 100 think about all the good things that are happening to us..take a break..then get back to trying to solve the problem.. Like now trying to get Lippert and Dometic to repair their problems at my site because I do not want to yank this thing anywhere.. It shall be done.

[sailer]

Those that think toyota is so great on the new truck ,, it just hit the skids as the tail gate now has a sticker that you can only put 200 lbs on it and no more as it breaks in many dif places,, so guys , no two guys can even sit on a tail gate of a new toyota and i was a lover of toyota and nissan ,, they found out when the north guys were loading there 4 wheeleres on the back of the truck the tail gates buckeled , also going down the rd if the rear tires from the 4 wheler sit in the tail gate it kinks in the center and the hindge seperates john

[Old GI]

Brad, I know they cashed the check, I only want to restate the obvious to them, their quality control doesn't go beyond cosmetic or curb appeal, the hidden things that are dangerous are things that happen during the manufacturing process and the dealer has no control over that nor do they care. I guess my comments on this site was so that if any MOC members hear a sizzling sound when they turn on the bathroom over the sink lights they need to investigate.

[bsmeaton]

Pete,

I for one always appreciate a heads up about a problem somebody had on thier Montana, especially when it involves safety. You should have seen the list of preventative fixes I had with me when we bought our last rig, all notes from folks experiences on the MOC. I would like to believe that as a result of good advice and "tricks of the trade" I've learned here, I've avoided many problems and I now add yours to the list of check, fix, improve.

As for Keystone, they are in a competetive industry. They have a forest of trees to cut and there is no room in the schedule for things like sharpening the saws. Like Stiles said, it takes way too long for a quality improvement to show up in the profit margin.

[sunrisetosunset]

i am not at all trying to get in the middle of this in anyway, but am curious......our 02 has on the very back of it.........by Thor..........i've always just figured keystone bought out thor or something and never really cared beyond that simple curiousity as our camper, while with minor problems and one somewhat mid-level one that i believe has been solved in later production model years, has given us several years of great experiences.......anything that has come down the pike......i've managed to take care of and only once inthe first year went to have a warranty issue taken care of by a dealer who didn't even carrry the montana brand, but did have some keystone products. again.....just curious......thanks for all the inputs in all the areas of this forum......gary

[fulltimedreamer]

quote:Originally posted by sunrisetosunset

i am not at all trying to get in the middle of this in anyway, but am curious......our 02 has on the very back of it.........by Thor..........i've always just figured keystone bought out thor or something

Gary,

Actually, Thor purchased Keystone and is the parent company of several RV manufacturers. As I understand it each division is autonoumous to some extent.

[blarkman]

Let me see if I have this right, the post was about not being ableo get past Customer service about a problem and how to resolve it,and we end up discussing everything else from trucks to who owns Montana. If we wrote letters they may have to hire another secretary and that might get their attention
bob

[richfaa]

That happens because folks respond to the last post instead of going to the first post and seeing what the poster was asking then sticking to the subject. Usually after about the 3rd or 4th reply we are way off the subject..like this post which has nothing to do with the first post but is a reply to the last post.

[bigmurf]

All I can say is " Louvered Tailgates " g

[Rondo]

You really want to get their attention?--- Certify that letter with a return receipt on it and if possible get the name of one of the "Bigwigs" and request only he/she can sign for that letter! That will guarantee that top management gets the letter and request a response in your letter! If they say they did not get the letter just send them a copy of your return receipt to show them they did and ask them for a response again!