Kipor + Surge Guard = problem w/ AC

[David and Jo-Anna]

I have the Kipor 3500 generator that I have been using for the 12 days we have been camping without hookups at Organ Pipe Cactus Nat'l Monument down near the Arizona/Mexico border. I have only had a few problems with it so far--one is with the little plug-in circuit tester with the three colored lights, which shows some weird results when I run the generator. The lights don't quite match the different combinations shown on the label on the tester--the closest it comes to is "hot/neutral reversed."

The other problem was that, the longer we stayed at Organ Pipe, the less well the generator seemed to do in recharging the batteries. During the first couple days, running the generator for one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon seemed to be enough to charge up the batteries so that I was still reading a "G" charge level (3 lights on the little idiot light monitor) each morning. As time passed, the charge level started dropping earlier each evening and was down to 2 lights on the monitor by morning. Then I had my big problem.

One hot afternoon I decided to try running the AC in the living room ceiling. This was the first time I had ever tried to run the AC while on the generator. When I first tried it, my Surge Guard (the 50 amp portable model) evidently saw an unacceptable surge from the generator and cut off power to the rig. To make it easier to satisfy the Surge Guard, I then turned off all other electrical devices I had on in the rig and tried again. This time, when the AC tried to start up, things went wild. The voltage level showing on my Kill-a-Watt meter was fluxuating all over the place. Worse, I heard this loud vibration/banging down in the basement area, where my Surge Guard is plugged in. I quickly went down to the basement and saw the Surge Guard vibrating and bouncing around wildly. I quickly shut down the AC and the Surge Guard settled down. I checked it and didn't see any evidence of damage to it. Thereafter, with the AC off, voltage levels were nice and stable on my Kill-a-watt meter.

I have heard many people indicate that a Kipor 3500 can handle the load of an AC. Are any of the people who run an AC with the Kipor using the Surge Guard in your setup? Anyone have any idea why I had the problem I did?

Side note--during the last several days I was at Organ Pipe after this episode, my battery levels really dropped down in the evening, even when I cut down the usage of lights and fans and started running the generator 2 hours each morning and each afternoon. The last two days there, I was down to one idiot light on the monitor panel by morning time, and the frig was showing the "lo dc" alert even though the frig was running on propane. Is this likely to be related to my Surge Guard incident, or is it just the case that a generator can't put a good charge into the batteries as more time passes (we were at Organ Pipe for a total of 12 days)? FYI, I have two 6 volt golf cart batteries that were put in new when I bought the rig last April.

[racerjoe]

It sounds like you have a wiring or fuse problem to your batteries and the gen. is not charging them. even though you are running on propane, your fridge needs dc power for the controls and will shut down. You should be able to run your ac on the generator. I would have someone look over the hookup, to the generator. In the meantime I would get the batteries charged some how to keep your fridge running. It could be an internal generator problem also.

[Emmel]

David, we have the 3500 Kipor, but have never used it with a surge protector, so I can't advise you on that problem. When I purchased our Hughes Autoformer, they told me to not run it on the generator. Now, I know these are two different devices, but they both have surge guards. The longest I've used the Kipor at one time was for 6 days, so I'm not help there either.

[noneck]

David, you should check the DC voltage at the batteries when running the Generator....should be around 13.5 volts. When trying to run AC you need to turn off the power miser so the generator is running at higher rpms to allow it to handle the current spike from the AC fan/compressor startup. Wondering if your low batteries were adding too much additional load combined with the AC turn on?

[H. John Kohl]

David, you might check the water level in your batteries.
Good luck

[richfaa]

We have never run the Kipor with the surge guard or the autoformer. The general consensus is that it is best not to. We also have never had a problem with the main A/C running off the Kipor. Will be interested to hear what your problem is..

[bncinwv]

Hmmmmmm, this is starting to get interesting, see my post on the Montana Hole. I sure wish Friday was here so I could see if my EMS (surge guard) installation is working on Campground Power. I am now wondering about my installation and whether BOTH the Autoformer and EMS should be on shore power only leg. H. John, any thoughts??? Did you ever get your installation done?? Sorry David, for wandering on your thread, but I am wondering if our problems are related somehow???
Bingo

[snfexpress]

We have the Honda EU2000i generators and were advised to run them directly to our 5er without going thru a surge protector or autoformer; the Hondas are supposed to deliver a pure sinewave and it seems to mess with the SurgeGuard. Since we were advised not to use it with the Hondas, I never have - no problems at all with the generators and A/C.

[David and Jo-Anna]

I checked the batteries and verified that the water level was good, but I didn't think to check the charging voltage level--I'll do that next time I setup the generator, which may be this weekend. I think I'll also unplug the Surge Guard and then try the AC on the generator to see if that works. I had heard the word about not having the Autoformer in the circuit when on the generator, but I hadn't previously heard about taking the Surge Guard out as well. Since the Kipor is supposed to be a close knockoff on the Honda, if the Surge Guard is not recommended for the Honda, it probably is not recommended for the Kipor.

For those with generators, I have a question about grounding. What do you all do about grounding the generator? I have the terminal on the front of the generator to which I could connect a grounding wire, but I don't often have any good, convenient grounding source to connect the other end of the ground wire to. I didn't have the generator connected to a ground wire last week--wonder if that could have contributed to my problem. Also wonder about those confusing lights I was getting on the little three light plug in circuit tester.

[bncinwv]

David,
You are starting to pique my curiosity about the grounding of the generator. I didn't ground it, never thought about it, got open ground errors on the Progressive Industries EMS system and am strongly thinking that this is all somehow related. I have an e-mail into the EMS system manufacturer and will let you know what they say. I would like to think that all of the surge guard systems would be the same with regards to generator usage, but we will see what they say.
Bingo

[bncinwv]

Received a response from Progressive Industries with regards to the open ground:
"Most portable gen sets will show a open ground. I have found that if you make up a short pigtail and tie the neutral and the ground wires together and only use this on the gen set the problem goes away."
This is interesting, so I guess I will be constructing a pigtail just for generator usage. I am assuming this pigtail would be a small extension to the existing cord which would tie together the neutral and the ground wires on the plug itself (I would also assume that the tie together jumper would best be done on the back of the female plug itself). Now the problem is that my gen cord is a 30 amp to 50 amp conversion cord with Manco fitting at the rig connect end. A manco fitting pigtail sounds like an expensive proposition. Any input on alternatives here from any electrical gurus will be appreciated. I have posted this as well on my Montana Hole thread.
Bingo

[richfaa]

We are on both a/c's today as it is over 90 and humid here in central Floria. We are on a 50 amp hookup and the A/C's are on the same leg (L1)
We are pulling 27 amps on that leg.We were also advised not to run through a surge protector or a auto former.. All this other stuff is way to complicated for me..

[bncinwv]

Rich,
You mean someone advised you not to run the Kipor (am I remembering correctly that is what you have???) through a surge protector and Autoformer??? Was this forum info, electrical guru info, or manufacturer info? curiosity is getting the best of me. Dang I wish it was Saturday so I could trouble shoot all of this. Bad thing is I will be troubleshooting without forum assistance. No internet at the campground next week. Bummer
Bingo

[Tom Gina 06]

I have the Kipor 3500 gen.. The dealer informed me to always leave the power-mizer switch off when running the air or any high draw to start electrical item in the Monty. They had a number of the 3500's returned for problems when the switch was not turned off. Another area you may want to consider trying is use the 13,500 amp air in the bedroom if you have it. The 16,000 main air might be to much spike for the gen to start it up. I believe that you will need more than a couple of hours time to fully charge your batteries and that is the reason they are slowly loosing their charge. Even the 13,500 air might have problems because the converter is running extra hard to charge the batteries. To much draw off the Gen set and many strange things happen. I have the 50 Amp Surge Gaurd and had some problems at my mothers house using my Kipor. I was trying to piggyback 15 amp house service with the 3500, this does not work. Next day said to heck with it and ran 50 amp service to her back yard so I didn't dig into it deeper.

One thing for sure, I have had a couple of problems thinking it was the Surge Guard. Even got into an arguement with the park manager over it. He blamed my house for the problem, in the end I spent 5 hours testing my house out, only to find out it was the problem breaker in HIS box that had one side bad. The Surge Guard IMHO is the only way to go. In fact you may want to call both Kipor and SurgeGuard customer service and see if between the both of them you may figure out what the problem is.

Good luck,
Tom

[Emmel]

Bingo, let me jump in here and answer the question you gave Rich about the auto-former and generator.
The person telling us not to use them both at the same time was the auto-former manufacturer. It's in their instruction manual, basically saying if we burn up the auto-former while using a generator, they will not fix it under warranty. After spending that much money for one, I'll not take the chance.
My auto-former is wired in with plugs on each end so I can unplug to use the generator.

[bncinwv]

I am aware of the autoformer issue, but had not heard that we should not use a surge-guard in conjunction with the generator???? Still digging.
Bingo

[richfaa]

It would be nice to clear that up. To add to what Steve Emmel said which is a fact. There was a Kipor Rep at our Dearler in Ohio who advised me either do not use the auto former and surge guard..or..that they were not needed..Now I am not so such which he said. We have run the main A/C off the kipor with no start up issues..of couse we have all else at Min. The use of the power mizer switch is important enough to have labeled on the generator so you do not forget. However note my above post on the 27 amp draw..The gen is 30 amps so with normal "stuff " runing like a light or two, the TV and the main A/C there is not much left over.

[bncinwv]

Thanks Rich, I did a follow up post on the Montana Hole thread after receiving input from Iota Engineering and Progressive Industries. I have not talked to Kipor (YET!!). Will know more next week, since I am going to try to use the EMS system on all inputs and the autoformer only on shore line input. We shall see and I shall let all know the final results.
Bingo

[TMerrell]

If the Kipor is wired like the Honda, there is a note in the owner's manual that says "Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral wire. If the generator is tested by a receptacle tester, it will NOT show the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle." There is another note that says before using the ground terminal to consult local electrical codes and ordinances.

Not sure what it will show with a tester, but I can check it if it will help.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Rich--if I read your post correctly, you are drawing 27 amps with both ACs running, correct? If so, that would be consistent with my general understanding that the living room AC draws around 15 amps and the BR AC draws around 12-13 amps.

In that case, when I had only the living room AC on and virtually everything else shut down except for the converter, am I correct in assuming that the converter would have to have been drawing in the neighborhood of an additional 15 amps to get close to the capacity of the Kipor. Could the converter have been drawing that much even with low battery levels?