Tread Separation - Montana Owners Club

bsmeaton · 08-21-2006, 04:30 PM

Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion -

Last month traveling through Utah enroute to sunny San Diego, we stopped to get fuel and noticed the tread on one of our original equipment tires separating, indicated by a raised center tread extending beyond normal and the outer treads worn completely off. We went to a tire shop down the road to change with the spare. We found two others doing the same thing. The tire shop manager said that with a GVW of 12,000 lbs, even the Load Range E tires are insufficient to handle the twisting and sideways motion of dual non-turning axles that fight each other when the trailer turns. The side pressure can eventually cause the tread separation. He recommended a 14-ply Load Range G tire that runs at 120 lbs to handle the side pressure better.

He may be right - or I may have "sucker" tatooed to my forehead, but I did want to continue our trip and there weren't alot of places to get a second opinion in the middle of the desert. I bought 4 new tires and they really do tow nice with the high pressure, perhaps even saving a little fuel as well.

Our's is a 2003, so it has a few years on it over what I see most folks to have. However, tires are a fact of life and it might be worth checking into it once the original equipment tires surrender.

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Brad & Dory

fulltimedreamer · 08-21-2006, 05:08 PM

bsmeaton,

I can see how the load range G tire would offer a measure of safety over the load range E tires. Did you also upgrade the wheels at that time? I would be suprised if the existing wheels were rated for 120 PSI? BTW that is a nice looking picture of your rig. We don't see many doubles out here on the east coast.

Lamar & Debbie
Cumming,GA

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http://www.geocities.com/fulltimedreamer2004

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'03 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 7.3 PSD

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bsmeaton · 08-21-2006, 05:44 PM

Lamar and Debbie,
Good question! I have aluminum wheels, and I could not find tech specs on their website so I just sent an inquiry. I know the tire shop replaced the valve stems with metal gasketed stems, but I'm just not sure about the wheels.

Thanks for the compliment. In these parts its pretty common for local lakes.

Montana Sky · 08-21-2006, 05:46 PM

To the best of my knowledge, the factory wheels will not handle 120 lbs. You might want to start looking for stronger wheels to handle that kind of pressure.

2004 Chevy Silverado LT 2500HD CrewCab Duramax
2004 Montana 3400RL

richfaa · 08-22-2006, 02:10 AM

Please do a spec check on the wheels with that tires pressure before you do any more trips. We are no experts but I beleive Sky is correct..

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

Ozz · 08-22-2006, 02:23 AM

Wow,
It's always something, isn't it.
Ozz

'07 3400RL 2nd RTU
2 Golf Cart batteries 3,000 watt inverter, automatic transfer switch
Honda 2000 Generator, Maytag's with 220 Dryer
Stationary domed Sat. dish, LCD 12 Volt Amp gauge, LCD Tank Monitor
3 added 120 volt outlets, On Board Air; 12 Volt Viair 450C compressor
2006 Ford PSD 4x4 Off Road Lariat, Hadley Air Horns, Truck inverter with 110 volts: laptop, Color Backup Camera, Awning lock

Glenn and Lorraine · 08-22-2006, 03:55 AM

In my years of experience tread separation is a manufacturers defect and not a road hazard. The description you are describing is consistent with a defect and would have been covered under warranty. Defects do happen. Sometimes to just one tire in a batch and sometimes to many tires in that same batch. Of course trying to find a dealer of that particular brand may be another story.

And in my opinion the statement "the Load Range E tires are insufficient to handle the twisting and sideways motion of dual non-turning axles that fight each other when the trailer turns." is a lot of bull. If that statement were true you would hear more about this situation over and over again. He had you between the rock and the hard place and he knew it.

BTW-I agree that you should be checking the specs on your wheels.

Glenn
Montana Owners Home Page
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Glenn and Lorraine

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LonnieB · 08-22-2006, 05:24 AM

Brad, I'm not 100% sure about the psi rating of your wheels, and I'm a good distance from mine, but all of the 16" white spoke type steel wheels that I sell are rated at 80 psi max. It should be stamped in the wheel somewhere close to the valve stem. There is of course a margin of safety in this rating, and in all probability the wheels will handle higher pressures. I personally would not go over 5 or 10 psi. and lowering the psi in the 14 ply tires to 85 or 90 will have no adverse effect on the tires as long as they dont overheat.

Lonnie

scattershot · 08-22-2006, 05:56 AM

All is not lost. You can run your tires at 80PSI and save the cost of new wheels. The tire manufacturer will be able to tell you the weight that the tire will handle at the reduced pressure.

"Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes."

LonnieB · 08-22-2006, 06:34 AM

Glenn, not trying to step on your toes or disagree with you, I'd just like to add to what you said.
Under normal operating conditions the ST rated Load Range E tires should be sufficient. Under adverse operating conditions, such as overloading,or off highway use, a Load Range G tire would be advised.
Another thing I have experienced is that an LT rated tire is "generally" more dependable than an ST rated tire of the same ply, in all conditions.
I agree with you about the tire guy in Utah, he saw an opportunity and jumped right in the middle of it. It's guys like him that give the rest of us "Tire Guys" a bad rep.

Lonnie

sreigle · 08-22-2006, 07:33 AM

I agree with those who say if that guy's statement were true there would be a whole lot more problems reported, not just with Montanas, either.

Most of the 2003 models, including ours, came with Goodyear Marathon tires. If you have the Goodyear Marathons, well.... I finally dumped ours after repeated problems over the years. I never wore one out. They separate the tread or bubble the sidewall or blow out or have other problems. Since I went with these BF Goodrich tires about 8,000 miles ago we've had zero problems with tires. Maybe others have good luck with the Marathons but mine were constant problems.

An LT tire is built to take those stresses and load range E has sufficient weight rating.

Lonnie makes some good points but most of us are not using ours off road or overloading the axles so the OEM tires are sufficiently rated for our use.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

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bsmeaton · 08-22-2006, 08:13 AM

Thanks to all for pointing out a potential hazard I hadn't thought of. I have not been able to verify the maximum pressure for the wheels through the manufacturer yet, and may have to find it on the wheel itself (hopefully it's not on the inside).

For now, I'll take the pressure back down to 80psi as the previous tires were. At the very least, maybe these tires are bullet proof or something.

Interesting that 2003 was the last year that Montana used the wimpy 15" standard 6-lug wheel on the 2955RL, and switched to a 16" in 2004, and again increased it to a larger tire and 8-lug wheel for all models in 2005. There must be some history with the lighter axles or else they were just streamlining the manufacturing process.

Brad and Dory

MAMalody · 08-22-2006, 08:10 PM

>>>Under normal operating conditions the ST rated Load Range E tires should be sufficient. Under adverse operating conditions, such as overloading,or off highway use, a Load Range G tire would be advised.
Another thing I have experienced is that an LT rated tire is "generally" more dependable than an ST rated tire of the same ply, in all conditions.

Ozz · 08-23-2006, 01:37 AM

Mike,
I have heard the same. Many, many people use the LT tires. (Not sure about ST), I asked a tire dealer, he said that people buy them all the time for trailers, but he, or many tire dealers MAY not honor the warranty if you do use them on a trailer. He said especially if you buy them locally, then have trouble in another state, with the tire.
I still am a little confused about the tire issue.
Ozz

'07 3400RL 2nd RTU
2 Golf Cart batteries 3,000 watt inverter, automatic transfer switch
Honda 2000 Generator, Maytag's with 220 Dryer
Stationary domed Sat. dish, LCD 12 Volt Amp gauge, LCD Tank Monitor
3 added 120 volt outlets, On Board Air; 12 Volt Viair 450C compressor
2006 Ford PSD 4x4 Off Road Lariat, Hadley Air Horns, Truck inverter with 110 volts: laptop, Color Backup Camera, Awning lock

Glenn and Lorraine · 08-23-2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by LonnieB

Glenn, not trying to step on your toes or disagree with you, I'd just like to add to what you said.
Under normal operating conditions the ST rated Load Range E tires should be sufficient. Under adverse operating conditions, such as overloading,or off highway use, a Load Range G tire would be advised.
Another thing I have experienced is that an LT rated tire is "generally" more dependable than an ST rated tire of the same ply, in all conditions.
I agree with you about the tire guy in Utah, he saw an opportunity and jumped right in the middle of it. It's guys like him that give the rest of us "Tire Guys" a bad rep.

Lonnie

Lonnie, I have pretty big feet but on here nobody can step on my toes. You have contributed a very good addendum to my reply.
I totally agree on the LT tires so much so if and when I get a new trailer it will have LTs or no deal. I have considerably more confidence in LTs that any ST. Overall I feel the LTs are a much better tire. I am still up in the air as to whether or not I get a higher ply rating.

Glenn and Lorraine · 08-23-2006, 03:34 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Ozz

Mike,
I have heard the same. Many, many people use the LT tires. (Not sure about ST), I asked a tire dealer, he said that people buy them all the time for trailers, but he, or many tire dealers MAY not honor the warranty if you do use them on a trailer. He said especially if you buy them locally, then have trouble in another state, with the tire.
I still am a little confused about the tire issue.
Ozz

I spent years in the tire business, both as a co-owner and general manager. To this day my brother still operates the very business he and I started back in 1971.
Here's a little plug for Adams Tire and Battery Service. Take a look at the "About Adams Tire" link. And Yes, I also built that site and I do believe it's time for an update.

Anyway back to the thread...
I never heard of such a thing. LT tires have been used on trailers for many years and before the LT designation we use regular old truck tires. As far as warranty, the tire is covered PERIOD. Now I am talking "Manufacturer Defect" and not necessarily "Road Hazard". Again, If any dealer says otherwise I'd be looking for a more reputable dealer.

sreigle · 08-23-2006, 04:34 AM

Many RV manufacturers put LT tires on their trailers. For at least a couple of recent years Keystone put LT tires on the Montana. The tires I put on this one last March are LT tires and they're doing better than the Goodyear Marathon ST tires that were on there before.

If I understand correctly, ST tires stand up better to weather and UV rays (is that correct?) than do LT tires. So if you will keep the same tires for five or six years, ST tires might last a bit longer before weather checking. But we will wear out the tread on ours long before that time expires so LT works for us. Another plus is if you do have to replace a single tire, the LT is more likely to be in stock and not keep you hanging around waiting for a replacement to be ordered. Been there on that, too.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

LonnieB · 08-23-2006, 04:56 AM

Mike, it is a fact there is a tremendous amout of stress on the sidewalls of any tandem axle trailer when cornering. It is also a fact ST rated tires are supposed to handle the stress. I can only tell you what my experience has been. We heve 2 tandem axle dual wheel flatbed gooseneck trailers, 1 triple axle single wheel trailer, and 4 tandem axle single wheel trailers. Thay all carry extreme loads, up to 20,000 lbs. on the first two. We no longer use ST rated tires on these trailers and we no longer have the tire problems we used to have. We still ruin a tire now and then, but nothing like before, and almost never from seperation. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm just sharing my own experience. As far as the warranty goes, I am a tire dealer and I would not turn down a warranty claim on a failed LT rated tire on a trailer, if in fact the failure was due to materials or workmanship. I can't tell you what others may, or may not do.
As far as I personally am concerned, Glenn said it all. The ST's will be comeing off my 3000RK as soon as possible. Hope I haven't confused the issue any more than it already was.

Lonnie
2006 Montana 3000RK, Reciever Hitch for Boat and Toy Trailer
2003 F250 CC PSD, LB, 6 Speed Manual Trans., 4X4, Air Suspension, Husky 15K Hitch

bsmeaton · 08-23-2006, 07:29 AM

I was just researching the Goodyear webpage - Per goodyear, the maximum speed rating for all ST rated tires is 65 mph per industry standards. Maybe thats why Keystone switched to LT.

Per the original thread, my factory tires that separated for whatever reason were LTs.

Ozz · 08-23-2006, 08:16 AM

Glenn,
I hear you, you made your point. I just repeated what I was told, as I stated, I am no tire expert, I'm willing to learn, like the rest of the Forum members.
Ozz

'07 3400RL 2nd RTU
2 Golf Cart batteries 3,000 watt inverter, automatic transfer switch
Honda 2000 Generator, Maytag's with 220 Dryer
Stationary domed Sat. dish, LCD 12 Volt Amp gauge, LCD Tank Monitor
3 added 120 volt outlets, On Board Air; 12 Volt Viair 450C compressor
2006 Ford PSD 4x4 Off Road Lariat, Hadley Air Horns, Truck inverter with 110 volts: laptop, Color Backup Camera, Awning lock

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