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Old 03-15-2009, 01:50 PM   #1
ALAN
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Gel coat and warranty

I realize that the Gel coat topic already exists but I have a reply that covers that and another subject discussed on this forum. If the moderators want it split into two items I will do so.

I had a 1 1/2 hour talk today with Charles Wade from Keystone. He was here for an annual sales event at a local dealer. We covered many subjects that I am sure would be of interest to our members, but I do want to take up that much of your time. The two items I will cover here concern the Hi Gloss Gel coat and Warranty service.

He restated what I had been told by the Dealer, that Keystone does not like to deliver units to areas of the US that have high heat and intense sunlight, i.e. Southern CA, AZ, NM, TX, etc. Over the years they have had a number of warranty claims mainly due to the graphics on non Gel Coat units, as well as the yellowing effect on the sidewalls with non Gel coat coverage. It takes a number of years for this to appear, but in the meantime, Gel coated units hold their appearance longer and in his opinion is worth the extra cost. If I decided to order a non gel coated unit, Keystone would try to convince me otherwise but in the final analysis would sell me the unit without the gel coat. His concern extended to units that tend to sit in the same place for long periods of time, and therefore have the same place on the unit exposed to the sun everyday. Gel coat units hold up to this situation better than non gel coat.

The other question concerned a comment I read on this forum from a member who was told that if he went out of state to buy a Montana, that the local Dealer was not obligated to service his trailer. I believe after hearing Mr. Wades explanation that there was a misunderstanding on either the buyer or dealer. As I understood Mr. Wades explanation,there are basicaly two warranty periods that Keystone offers. One is a 90 day adjustment warranty and the other is their standard 1 year warranty. For the first 90 days, if you have a minor adjustment that needs to be made, the selling dealer will be reimbursed by Keystone for this expense. Such as cabinet doors that don't close correctly or some other minor items. System failures or major items would still be fixed via the 1 year warranty. If you have a minor adjustment any dealer other than the selling dealer is not obligated to make the adjustment at no charge. They may decide to do so, but may not be reimbursed by Keystone for this service. If I understood him correctly, that is a long way from the implied thought, that the local non selling dealer would not work on your unit. Mr Wade went to great lengths to ensure that I understood the difference between these two warranty issues. I think that there may have been a misunderstanding either between the buyer/dealer or in the dealer/keystone communication.

I found Mr. Wade to be a delightful person to talk with an very knowledgeable on the Keystone line. He says he reads this forum almost every day and a number of improvements or changes have come about due to the comments made here. He told me an interesting story on how the remote control system was developed which was a direct result of a member of this forum. He told similar stories on other items, the background of each helped understand the commitment of Keystone to their products.

Alan & Kathy
 
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:05 PM   #2
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Warranty work or paid for work, if you do not buy your unit from them, MANY dealers will do the work, but, you MAY be put on the back burner, it may take WEEKS to get your unit on the road. Al and I have been in any number of dealerships where it is CLEARLY posted on the wall, OUR BUYING CUSTOMERS will be fixed first, or words to that effect.

That said, Keystone and Montana service department have been quite helpful any number of times getting a MOC member assistance while they are away from their home base/selling dealer.

I have opinions about the explanation you received, or walked away with, but, will keep the rest of them to myself.

Good report, thanks for posting it.



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Old 03-15-2009, 03:00 PM   #3
richfaa
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we agree with the gel coat explanation and have heard that from other folks at Keystone and other places.. However..what is the rational for so much of the unit NOT being high gloss gel coat. Compartment doors, lower panels, front and rear caps??? Just my opinion but I think it would be worth the extra cost if the entire unit was High Gloss gel.... Mr Wade is a very Knowledgeable person.
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Old 03-15-2009, 03:09 PM   #4
rames14
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Thanks for the post, Alan. I believe we met Mr. Wade as our tour host last year at the MOC rally. He was very informative there as well. We have had our own experience with repairs at a dealer we didn't buy from in the past. That is the main reason we purchased our new Big Sky from our local dealer.
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Old 03-15-2009, 04:41 PM   #5
ALAN
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Rich,

I asked that question of Mr. Wade. His explanation was that they now offer Gel Coat on all surfaces except the main entry door and the large barn doors for the basement. The main door is alum. and already has a shine, the basement door hinges can not handle the wt of the gel coat. They are working on a source to either replace the hinges or use another material for the door surface that more closely matches the rest of the unit.

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Old 03-15-2009, 07:39 PM   #6
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I know our unit is OLD ...it's a 2003 built in September/October of 2002. We have high gloss gel coat on every single surface with maybe the exception of the entry door. The front storage door where the battery is does not have high gloss gel coat on it either. We have had no problem with the hinges on the basement doors or the propane doors. I know some of the doors are made differently now as they have side hinges. The current Big Sky's along with those since it's resurrection also have high gloss gel coat on the doors too, don't they? Why would it be a problem on the Montanas with weight in regard to the high gloss & not on the Big Skys?

I wonder now that Napanee Windows has gone out of business if Keystone has found a new vendor? I am guessing they had/have a lot of basement doors in stock. With Keystone being so large they have the ability to buy in bulk and get good prices. (They did this several years ago when there was an oven shortage that some members may remember. Once the ovens became available Keystone bought a large amount of them, so those of us with Montanas were able to get ovens when other manufacturers couldn't.) I'm betting we'll see different basement/storage doors on the Montanas sooner than later. Maybe those will be capable of handling high gloss gel coat. I know there is another RV manufacturer who is now using basement doors like the do on motor homes. We saw them at a local dealer recently.

I have to say if we were fortunate enough to order a new Montana we'd get high gloss gel coat for sure, but it not being on all the doors would not please us. Could even affect the decision to even order a new one. It's hard to believe the weight difference would be that great on the doors as the area does not seem that large.

Rich, I was under the impression that all Montana front and rear caps are high gloss gel coat, but that the sides were filon. Also didn't I read in another thread that you said there was confusion as to how much the high gloss actually weighed? That it ended up being less weight that originally thought?


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Old 03-16-2009, 03:43 AM   #7
richfaa
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Early on the word was that the gel coat added 600lbs to the weight of the camper. That proved false and it was Charles Wade who I finally talked to that provided the correct information. The ADDITIONAL weigh is @ 200 lbs.Of course that would vary as not all campers are the same size. Same with the dual pane windows. It was reported that they added 600lbs to the camper...also false.

Meanwhile The company that made the compartment doors made High Gloss gel coat doors.?????
We were told..at the factory that the front and rear caps were NOT filon or high gloss but fiberglass or ABS..I forgot which. Saw a broken rear cap on a new Montana here and it sure looked like fiberglass.
You can buy the high gloss gel coat by the gallon or larger and apply it yourself.

I have the highest regard for all of the district Sales reps we have met and talked to. They are very knowledgeable of their product as they should be..because.. they are salespersons and their job is to sell Montana division products.
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Old 03-16-2009, 05:42 AM   #8
hazmic
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Gel Coat or not a person SHOULD wax the unit once a year. Just because you have a Gel Coat you still need to wax it. It will protect the surface from sun and other things that are in the air and help in removing the bugs on the cap. I do not know what is the best wax as that is a matter of choice but wax is better then no wax.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:49 AM   #9
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Rich thank you for answering.

Our front cap got broken...Dick had an argument with a McDonalds and lost. We had it repaired, had the option of a new one which would take months or repairing the old one...took the repair route. It was fiberglass without a doubt. You could tell as soon as it beaten by McDonalds.

ABS is a plastic right? I was not at the rally last yaer... so I didn't go on the tour, but I believe in previous years the caps were indeed fiberglass. Isn't high gloss but over (or under in the case of boats) the filon/fiberglass. I am definitely confused now. Easy to do I know.

Rich thank you for clearing up the weight on the windows & weight of the high gloss gel coat! If we ever get to order a new one it will help justify those options.


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Old 03-16-2009, 10:32 AM   #10
richfaa
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We did not get the dual pane or High Gloss gel when we ordered as that weight question was up in the air and a extra 1200lbs was out of the question. We just knew that those weights could not be correct so went on a quest to find out the truth. It was Charles Wade and a couple others at Keystone that cleared it up.We would no doubt have got the high gloss if we had been sure of the weight. I still think it is a high price to pay for the portion of the campers that ARE High Gloss and would like to know the rational for the portion of the camper that IS NOT High Gloss. Some of the explanations do not make sense...to me.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:34 AM   #11
sreigle
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Quite a few people here have reported dealers refusing to service Montanas they didn't sell. We personally have never run into that situation.

After Carol (Mrs. CountryGuy) ran into that problem with our dealer, I talked with the dealership's owner, a guy for whom I have a great deal of respect. He was surprised they were turned down. He told me their policy is they will work on those units for someone passing through or those who moved here after purchase. They will not (or will back burner) those who lived here when they purchased but chose to go to a distant dealer to save money. I related Carol's experoiend and asked that he update his service department on this policy. He said he would and I believe him since he's always been very upfront with us.

So, it may be a service department misunderstood the dealership's policy. If a dealership refused to work on ours I would seek out the dealership general manager or owner to confirm their policy.

That all said, a few years ago when this topic was hot on this forum, one of our members contacted Keystone and was told the dealership contract requires they work on those they sold but there was no language stating they have to work on just any Montana that comes in. Perhaps as a result of these conversations the contracts have been revised. But I do not know whether they have or not.

I remember when Rich reported the weight corrections. GelCoat is 600 lbs and filon is 400. So gelcoat is 200 more than a non-gelcoat.

Now, if Keystone would just correct another situation (if they haven't already, I did point it out to them).. when we ordered this Montana we wanted to upgrade to the 10 cubic foot refrigerator. It's on the options list (at that time). But it was $1500 ADDITIONAL dollars. I suggested it is 1500 only if the 8 c.f. fridge is credited back (about 1200). So it would be roughly 300 more for the larger refrigerator. I pointed out a brand new 10 footer at CW was about $1500 at the time and the 8 footer was 1200. Nobody in our dealership agreed with me so we got (and still regret) the smaller refrigerator. I really believe the order form is incorrect in this instance. Maybe it's been changed since we ordered our Montana in July 2006.
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Old 03-16-2009, 12:01 PM   #12
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Steve

As you know, we were passing through KC at the time we stopped at your dealer. Not only would they not work on the unit, they would not even LOOK at the unit. If my memory serves and believe me, it does not all the time, I believe our concern at that point was frame flex, which, yes, we did have.

I have not heard anything about re-writing the agreement with the dealers, but, I like that idea! I have always felt that there was something wrong with that, seeing that these houses of ours come with wheels.

We were burned a bit by your dealer, we were scorched by our own. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what we think of dealerships? SIGHHHHH

One would hope with the economy in the dumpster that maybe some of the dealers would figure out that service and the good word you get by giving good service would make a lot of sense to them. If I were in business, I would surely be very careful to give the best service I could, cause if you don't it is all over the internet in hours. We have seen several instances of that right here on the MOC.

If there is an up side to this silliness, it might be that some of the shadier dealers will not survive, and we are happy to report that at least one of those shady dealers in the greater Metro Detroit area has already kicked off. Did not sell Montanas, not sure they sold any Keystone products. And, we do not miss the crook.

oooo, did Carol say that?? yep she did!

I agree with Rich on this:
"I have the highest regard for all of the district Sales reps we have met and talked to. They are very knowledgeable of their product as they should be..because.. they are salespersons and their job is to sell Montana division products."

OH, and would also like to thank Rich again for tracking down the truth about the weight of the high gloss, too bad we bought our Tana before Rich, we sure are sorry we don't have that option. SIGHHHH IF there is every another unit, IF, IF, IF
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Old 03-17-2009, 05:00 AM   #13
richfaa
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We would certainly, have got the high gloss If we had all the facts regarding weight at the time. Another question I would like to ask is.... as we who have toured the factory know the graphics are installed at the factory.. so how does high gloss protect the graphics as they are installed over the High Gloss. (do they stick better) Also the manufacturer of the graphics tell us DO NOT wax them or apply any kind of clear coat over them. Like Steve I do not hand wax his huge 3400. We do not wax it at all. Our Graphics after 33 months of exposure to sun and weather are in good shape. Oh.. There are other brands here at this resort that have high gloss gel compartment doors. They must have higher quality door hinges???? so many questions.
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:22 AM   #14
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Don't ask why I have stuff that is this old,

Anyway, found in an email to a couple of friends of mine, dated April 2007, we had busted the door lock (exterior door) for the second time, the details are not important here, but, a tad humorous now.

What is important is the way the out of town dealer reacted when we were calling for PARTS!! Here is just a short bit of that email to my friends:

The gal here in XXCX CITY (name deleted to protect the guilty) , asks me what kind of rig, I say, Montana, she says, we DON'T WORK ON MONTANAs and she was not real nice about it. I asked her, not so nice about it, YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU WON"T SELL ME A PART????? OHH, she comes back, hold on, then comes back and says, sweetly, no we don't have that lock.

ahhhh, the good ole times!
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Old 03-18-2009, 01:36 AM   #15
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We just purchased our new Big Sky at a dealer that had previously questioned whether they would service us or not. Believe me, I sat down with the owner and had a long discussion. Whether it is a change or not, I can't say, but he told me that they are obligated to work on units passing through. He had a term for it but I don't remember it. However, if you buy for price and then go to another dealer for service, they do not have to honor that. He told me that on average, it costs them about $1700 per unit in non-reimbursed warranty costs. In other words, when I go in for warranty, Keystone goes through the list and selects what they will and won't pay to repair. This explains why dealers don't like you buying elsewhere and then bringing it to them for repairs. In essence, the non-servicing dealer pockets an extra $1700 while the servicing dealer loses money. Wouldn't make me happy either.
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