Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > Tow Vehicles & Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-21-2018, 06:18 PM   #41
beeje
Montana Master
 
beeje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: westminster md
Posts: 2,318
M.O.C. #17894
Lynwood, I do not consider myself the weight police at all ( since I have towed, knowing I was over weight before in the past). But the facts are the facts and the #s are the numbers. If the #s did not matter, there would be none. I have seen a number of overturned/ destroyed trucks and trailers in my travels. I have no way of knowing exactly what happened in those incidents.

I can tell you that towing my 15k lbs +unit with a 1 ton SWR truck compared to my current 1 ton DRW truck is night and day, and WAY more stable.

There are lots of instances in life that people choose to do the wrong thing. Take for example putting a 2nd layer of singles on your house. Most people know that it should not be done but do it anyway to save $$. I have seen a few with 3 layers. There usually are no bad results from doing so, but what if the roof had collapsed and some one was killed. Same goes with towing, what if someone loses control of there rig going down a mountain grade, crashes and takes out a few other families in the process.

IMHO If you have no desire to acquire the correct tow vehicle for the job, then one should acquire a correctly sized camper to tow, that is within the tow vehicles weight rating of the truck you own.
 
beeje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 06:35 PM   #42
waynemoore
Montana Master
 
waynemoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ.
Posts: 1,811
M.O.C. #10552
Wait a second if you weigh the front axel then the rear axel then add that together I don't think that is the correct weight. I could be wrong but have you ever weighed the whole truck.

Just thinking when you weigh the front axel you also get weight from the back and the same for when you weight the rear axel. I bet if you were to weigh the entire truck it would weigh less that joining the two weights ???

Please someone correct me if I am wrong?
__________________
Wayne and Ann Moore
2015 Ford F-350 King Ranch
Firestone air bags, bed saver.
Add 40 GAL tank in bed.
waynemoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 06:44 PM   #43
mlh
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,528
M.O.C. #2283
My brother and I have towed my HC with his 3500 DRW Chevy and my F250 Ford. He was a diehard Chevy fan. Neither one of us could tell in different in stability of the trucks. Maybe because I had 20 inch wheels which have less sidewall space. If he could have been able to tell any difference he would have been most happy to point it out. The only difference we could tell was my truck had a lot more power, I have removed all the pollution controls and it has 600 HP.
Lynwood
mlh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 07:34 PM   #44
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlh View Post
Let me ask the weight police. What bad things have YOU seen happen when someone overloaded their truck a small %. I personally haven’t seen anything bad happened to anyone. Maybe you have.
Lynwood
What I have seen is the CA highway patrol pull over 3/4 ton trucks pulling fivers, weighing them, ticketing them, and requiring them to disconnect the trailer on the spot.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 10:13 PM   #45
waynemoore
Montana Master
 
waynemoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ.
Posts: 1,811
M.O.C. #10552
Well stay out of CA.
__________________
Wayne and Ann Moore
2015 Ford F-350 King Ranch
Firestone air bags, bed saver.
Add 40 GAL tank in bed.
waynemoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 12:06 AM   #46
STIHLNTIME
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Stark City
Posts: 89
M.O.C. #21339
Lynwood, thank you for being the voice on reason. If you are slightly overweight big deal, 3/4 of the people would be under the jail for operating overweight truck trailer combos in my area, whether it be a flatbed implement trailer or cattle trailer. If you survey most RV parts my guess would be over 60% would be overweight truck/trailer combo’s. I can tell you that my father who was a State Trooper for 33 years never placed a emphasis on policing RV weights and I doubt any State Trooper at least in this state has issued a citation for a RV rig being overweight. Sure you should be aware of ratings and try to comply within reason, but you would think by some comments on here an extra five lbs is going to break an axle, or if you comment contrary to their beliefs you should get the flame suit ready. I can afford any truck I want, I also use mine daily when not traveling and mine fits both of the uses I need. If you get right down to it, these 440 hp, 900+ ft lbs of torque little pickups are capable of pulling a hell of a lot more than any of them can stop safely at most posted highway speeds. I’m a lot more comfortable with the guy/gal who is overweight a 1000 lbs that pulls a trailer frequently than the guy who is within all the proper parameters that only gets two or three weeks a year hooked/towing. I wish people would just continue to educate people on how to properly weigh their rigs, determine pin weight, total weight then let them make their own decision on what they are going to do. How many rigs going down the road on crappy tires that are under their weight limits, probably more people getting killed a year due to cheap crappy tires than being slightly overweight. You know the type spend over 150k on a rig and not 700.00 on a set of tires every three or four years. Rant over
__________________
Indian Springs Farm
2018 3121RL Samsung Residential Fridge
2018 Ford F250 PSD Air Lift 5000
Sailun 637 tires Predator 3500 (2) paralleled
STIHLNTIME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 04:05 AM   #47
jeffba
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bastrop
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #20753
out of popcorn
__________________
Mocha, one-eyed toothless, hurricane survivor, Pirate dog
2019 20th Anniversary Edition 3701LK
B&W 20K for Ford OEM Puck
2018 Ford F-350 Lariat CCLB PSD DRW KJ5CQH
jeffba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 07:33 AM   #48
Mtncrash1
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Omaha
Posts: 143
M.O.C. #21598
Quote:
Originally Posted by waynemoore View Post
Wait a second if you weigh the front axel then the rear axel then add that together I don't think that is the correct weight. I could be wrong but have you ever weighed the whole truck.

Just thinking when you weigh the front axel you also get weight from the back and the same for when you weight the rear axel. I bet if you were to weigh the entire truck it would weigh less that joining the two weights ???

Please someone correct me if I am wrong?
Weighing each axle separately and adding together will give you the right weight. I’ve been pulled over by DOT in the past. They carry portable scales and are only able to weigh each axle individually. This not only gives them the total weight but also gives them the axle weights.( which can lead to a ticket for the axle even though total weight is good) Most truck stop scales are set up to weigh each axel or group of axles. If you can’t get your rig on each individual scale the operator will weigh what they are able to and then have you move to get the others.
__________________

2017 HC 345RL
2015 F-250
Mtncrash1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 07:41 AM   #49
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtncrash1 View Post
Weighing each axle separately and adding together will give you the right weight. I’ve been pulled over by DOT in the past. They carry portable scales and are only able to weigh each axle individually. This not only gives them the total weight but also gives them the axle weights.( which can lead to a ticket for the axle even though total weight is good) Most truck stop scales are set up to weigh each axel or group of axles. If you can’t get your rig on each individual scale the operator will weigh what they are able to and then have you move to get the others.
Out of curiosity, was your current rig weighed?
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 07:50 AM   #50
Mtncrash1
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Omaha
Posts: 143
M.O.C. #21598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Man View Post
Out of curiosity, was your current rig weighed?
No I have yet to weigh it. I do know that I am heavy on the pin weight and, if dry weight numbers from the factory are to be believed am under on gcvwr. I have an appointment to add leaf springs before I pull again. This will technically take me to one ton specs. It won’t be factory certified so, still technically illegal. Once the springs are in I will weigh the tv and then total unit next time I pull. This may be in a month or so as u am set up in the same spot for at least that long for work.

Just to clarify I was pulled over in a commercial vehicle. Haven’t been pulled over pulling this rv or the tt I had before.
__________________

2017 HC 345RL
2015 F-250
Mtncrash1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 08:24 AM   #51
beeje
Montana Master
 
beeje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: westminster md
Posts: 2,318
M.O.C. #17894
I whole heartedly agree with what was said above. I occasionally travel to a 2 week long destination knowing that my truck/trailer could be slightly over weight, loaded up with fire wood/multiple large coolers of ice and beverages/lots of food and cloths etc. That would only happen one way since most of the goods would not be there on the trip back home.

I think the whole point that we are all discussing here is the fact that most RVers never take the time to go get there rigs weighted while loaded up and ready for travel. Hence, there is know way to know if you are slightly or WAY over weight.

I do not know exactly what my rig weighs on every trip. That is simply impossible to know. But I can say that I have weighed each rig I have had multiple times in different loading situations, and I have a good idea of what my weight will be in those situations.

Lets face it, we all know that any of these very powerful diesel trucks will pull dam near anything you can put behind them down the road. Stopping them in a reasonable distance in an emergency situation is another discussion all together.

As a payload example I just looked up the specs for new 2019 Chevy trucks.
Maximum payload of any 2500 is 3276#s That's in a regular cab short bed 2 WD truck (which none of us tow with) When you add a crew cab and 4x4 the #s fall below 3000#s. The pin weight alone of many heavy units could put you over the trucks payload. Now you add your firewood/coolers/fuel/4 passengers etc. and load your camper up and you are over by 1000,s of #s

Maximum payload of any 3500 is 6112#s The 1 ton trucks nearly double your payload capacity.
beeje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 08:36 AM   #52
Dave W
Montana Master
 
Dave W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,788
M.O.C. #14547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtncrash1 View Post
No I have yet to weigh it. I do know that I am heavy on the pin weight and, if dry weight numbers from the factory are to be believed am under on gcvwr. I have an appointment to add leaf springs before I pull again. This will technically take me to one ton specs. It won’t be factory certified so, still technically illegal. Once the springs are in I will weigh the tv and then total unit next time I pull. This may be in a month or so as u am set up in the same spot for at least that long for work.

Just to clarify I was pulled over in a commercial vehicle. Haven’t been pulled over pulling this rv or the tt I had before.

Just for some general figures



A 345RL HC, the updated model for our '14 343RL, will weigh in at just about 12,000 pounds with minimum 'stuff' and water regardless of what the Keystone website says)

An F250 CCLB, 4x4 diesel will weigh in at just about 8300 pounds. Mine is 8360 by CAT scale. Add a hitch, mom, kids and dog .....



If your truck has the 5er and camper options, it is more then capable in every way to haul that 5er. Unfortunately, that 'B' pillar sticker will only go to 10,000 pounds, max and as I said way back, to satisfy insurance companies and state DOTs


Now I need more popcorn and another 6 pack of my favorite bev!!!
__________________
Dave W
2014 Montana High Country 343RL (Sold!)
2011 Ford 6.7 Lariat CCLB (Went to PU Heaven)
2019 F150SC XLT SE Sport,w/full tow package
Dave W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 08:36 AM   #53
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
The pin weight is IN the truck bed. Trailer weight and Pin weight are two different things. I do know how the numbers work and I say no more on this thread.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 08:55 AM   #54
Mtncrash1
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Omaha
Posts: 143
M.O.C. #21598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W View Post
Just for some general figures



A 345RL HC, the updated model for our '14 343RL, will weigh in at just about 12,000 pounds with minimum 'stuff' and water regardless of what the Keystone website says)

An F250 CCLB, 4x4 diesel will weigh in at just about 8300 pounds. Mine is 8360 by CAT scale. Add a hitch, mom, kids and dog .....



If your truck has the 5er and camper options, it is more then capable in every way to haul that 5er. Unfortunately, that 'B' pillar sticker will only go to 10,000 pounds, max and as I said way back, to satisfy insurance companies and state DOTs


Now I need more popcorn and another 6 pack of my favorite bev!!!
Dave thanks for those numbers. I don’t pull with water in the tanks but, with what I carry for work and what not your numbers are probably pretty close and might be a bit shy. I think people should know that what I am doing to the tv in no way makes it legal unless done by a dealer and factory certified. ( a new sticker put in the truck). It will however put less stress on the suspension components and more importantly make for a safer tow.
__________________

2017 HC 345RL
2015 F-250
Mtncrash1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 03:30 PM   #55
Goodrich3600
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Cicero
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #20036
Air bags have to many maintenance issues, still can not legally tow more than the Trucks rated tow capacity per DOT. look at the roadmaster active suspension system, basically maintenance free. Still won’t solve overloading of unit but it does have weight benifits
Goodrich3600 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 04:41 PM   #56
jlb27537
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Depends on temps
Posts: 1,648
M.O.C. #13157
I believe you are mis-reading that. The GVWR of the vehicle is the most the vehicle can weigh.

If your truck has a 10000 Gvwr, weighs 7500lbs empty with passengers, fuel, hitch, etc. You can now add 2500lbs to the vehicle. As long as you do not go over the GAWR or the GVWR.

Weigh your truck, get axle weights, now hook up trailer and re-weigh everything. If your truck weighs more than the GVWR number in the door jam you are over weight. Yes, the weight of the pin counts as to weight the truck can legally carry.

Bottom line, you are probably overweight. What gears do you have in your truck?
jlb27537 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 05:29 PM   #57
phillyg
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: SWFL
Posts: 964
M.O.C. #17801
I added bags to get the truck more level, but as others have stated, they won't increase your carrying capacity if the pin overloads you.
__________________
2016 Montana 3711FL
2005 Ford F350, 6.0 diesel, short bed
Demco Hitchiker Auto Slide hitch
phillyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 06:52 PM   #58
scottz
Site Team
 
scottz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado Rockies
Posts: 1,910
M.O.C. #19755
Quote:
Originally Posted by waynemoore View Post
Wait a second if you weigh the front axel then the rear axel then add that together I don't think that is the correct weight. I could be wrong but have you ever weighed the whole truck.

Just thinking when you weigh the front axel you also get weight from the back and the same for when you weight the rear axel. I bet if you were to weigh the entire truck it would weigh less that joining the two weights ???

Please someone correct me if I am wrong?
I have weighed my front axle, rear axle then both axles. The individual axle weighs add up exactly to the weight when weighing both axles.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Hblick48 View Post
I just learned that GVWR does not include pin weight of the 5er per Etrailer.com:

"The gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), or gross vehicle mass (GVM) is the maximum operating weight/mass of a vehicle as specified by the manufacturer including the vehicle's chassis, body, engine, engine fluids, fuel, accessories, driver, passengers and cargo but excluding that of any trailers."

I was including the pin weight in GVWR calculation. That means that I am not overloaded, just tilted. Whew, I feel better.
Not really wanting to get into this discussion, but I think you are reading this wrong. I absolutely consider pin weight in my GVWR; my truck does not care if it is pin weight or bags of concrete in the back. The remainder of the trailer weight is not part of the GVWR but is included in the GCVWR.
__________________
Scott & Alta
2017 Montana 3160RL, Legacy, Onan 5.5Kw, Solar
2022 F-450 Lariat Ultimate
scottz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 07:13 PM   #59
Rick Leary
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Blacksburg
Posts: 13
M.O.C. #20075
Send a message via AIM to Rick Leary Send a message via MSN to Rick Leary Send a message via Yahoo to Rick Leary
With all due respect I'm betting your truck is way, way over GCWR. Air bags might level the truck / RV but you may be driving an accident waiting to happen. If so, from a safety and legal liability standpoint no upgrades will protect you. I wish you well!
Rick Leary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 07:29 PM   #60
waynemoore
Montana Master
 
waynemoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ.
Posts: 1,811
M.O.C. #10552
Ok great I may have learned something new. BUT I still am not sure so I will weigh mine front, rear and the entire truck.
__________________
Wayne and Ann Moore
2015 Ford F-350 King Ranch
Firestone air bags, bed saver.
Add 40 GAL tank in bed.
waynemoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.