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Old 05-11-2008, 06:37 PM   #21
sreigle
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OK, we got the Eliminator, the JT knockoffs and had them installed by Camping World, Albuquerque. Unfortunately, we're taking it back on Wednesday to have them correct the incorrect installation of the rear stabilizers. They're supposed to run more or less parallel to the rear window, crosswise in other words. They installed them parallel to the length of the coach. They don't do much good in that position. I'm not happy about having to spend another $60 or better in diesel to get this fixed. We're in Santa Fe.

Also, the dimwit they had install them screwed up just about everything and I am going to point out to them his mistakes. Actually, he did a pretty good job on the front ones. However, he didn't tighten anything. There are mounts that bolt through the frame. Those were just short of snug. And the arms connect to those mounts. And those connections were loose. After tightening the T handles you could shake the arms and move them at their connection points and where the mounts bolt to the frame. That does little for stability. So, I disconnected everything and tightened it all up.

The manual says the arm connections are to be snug but not so tight they can't move when the landing gear moves. I guess the installer thought that meant leave them loose. He didn't use much brainpower in thinking that one through. After all, the purpose is stability. They snug up nicely and still move without restriction.

Ya just can't get good help these days.

I'll not really know how well these work until we get the rear stabilizers installed correctly. I can tell a seriously major improvement but there's still a bit more movement than I thought we'd have. The rears may change that when installed properly.

Snownyet, that's a great price.
 
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:25 AM   #22
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Steve, I just looked at the Eliminator web site and they show the rears going fore and aft. I have the JTs and I installed them laterally, (side to side) which stops the tail waggle. I have no idea how they came up with the fore and aft configuration. The fore and aft should be taken care of by the front units. Oh well, good luck on the Dimwit.. Dave
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:29 AM   #23
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Dave, thanks for the information. You might note the picture shows scissor jacks. In the Eliminator manual, there are different instructions for scissor jacks and telescoping jacks. The instructions for telescoping jacks show they should be installed side-to-side. I suspect it is the tail waggle you mentioned that is what we are feeling. I appreciate your posting this as maybe it will clarify for anyone mounting them to scissor jacks.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:29 AM   #24
Bill and Lisa
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I have my rear plug it right stablizers installed fore to aft. If you use wood blocks that that you don't extend the built in stablizers beyond a 45 degree angle the OEM stablizers counteract side to side motion in the rear. The add in stablizers, mounted fore to aft counteract any front to rear movement as you walk inside the unit and the tires try to roll fore to aft slightly. I have sent an email to verify with plug it right folks that their product should be installed fore to aft and will let you know what they come back with.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:26 AM   #25
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Steve, I also had to add a 2x3 inch box channel behind the jack mechanism to support the JT's, which gives almost a diagonal bracing. once we have them down and locked you can't push on the rear and get any wiggle at all. We love them..
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:41 PM   #26
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I bought a set of the Eliminators from C/W the other day! Couldn't find any ad for JTs any cheaper than the $359 ones! I haven't installed them yet but they seem to be the same as the JTs. I'm hoping I can use some of the U channel I have to mount them on the front and rear. If not I'll have to break down and buy the box channel. I'll let you all know when I get them on and how they work! I know one thing, they are heavy in the box!
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:29 AM   #27
sreigle
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Thanks for all the replies and great information. I think the front stabilizers (Eliminator) have pretty much eliminated fore-aft movement plus side to side movement in the front. Plus, we use between wheel BAL chocks that stop movement of the tires. Where we have movement is side to side in the rear. And I think if the Eliminators were installed per the instruction manual they'd stop that movement, also.

I've not dropped the belly pan but it feels like this 3400 has a cross member aft of the rear telescoping stabilizers. I'd have to drop the pan to peer in there to tell for sure but pushing on the pan it sure feels solid. It may just be the end of the rear clip. It's supposed to rain today so I may not be able to check that out before the rain starts. Our appt with CW is tomorrow. But I'll try.

Rondo, that's the same reason we went with the Eliminator. You shouldn't need the U-channel for the front ones. Existing frame members will work. I'm not sure on the rear, as noted above.
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:09 AM   #28
Bill and Lisa
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Well, I heard back from the Plug it Right folks and their rear struts should be mounted side to side across the rear of the unit not Fore - N - Aft like I have them installed.
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Old 05-14-2008, 04:42 PM   #29
sreigle
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Now what, Bill and Lisa?

Here's a page from the installation manual for the Eliminator..



Today we towed the house back down to Albuquerque to Camping World. Actually, this CW is in conjunction with Freedom Roads, an RV dealer, so it's Freedom Roads who screwed up the installation.

I pointed out the errors. And then I told them about the loose connections and how they'd pointed the rear T handles downward. They can vibrate loose and drop out along the road. The service writer promised me they'd get it right this time.

The day before I dropped the aft portion of the belly pan just enough to see and reach in there to see if there is a crossmember within the stated (per installation instructions) minimum 6 inches and max 18 inches from the telescoping stablizers. There is an L channel angle iron cross member that's pretty stout that's 8 to 9 inches from the stablizers, so that would work fine.

We picked up the rig late in the day. They did, in fact, get them mounted crosswise per instructions. BUT, the T handles are pointing downwards. And one of the connections is loose. It was late in the day and we had a 90 minute tow plus setup to look forward to. Plus, they still had my installation manual which they promised they'd return. I can fix those problems so decided not to wait on them. While I started getting us hitched up, Vicki went in to the service writer and got the manual. And she also told them about their mistakes. The service writer said she told the guy twice about the T handles and the loose connections. That guy, whoever he is, needs to be talked to by someone who has power over continuation of his job.

Anyhow, even with one loose connection, turning those rear arms crosswise made a big, big difference. We tested the stability and found just a little up and down movement so I put down our scissor jacks, behind the rear wheels, to take care of that. Vicki says 95% to 98% of the movement is gone and I agree with that. What little bounce we feel I think is just flex in our floor. We are not lightweight people. Also, when I tighten that one connection point tomorrow that might make a little difference, too.

At this point we are very happy with the Eliminator.

And while we were there they took care of the recall on our Dometic refrigerator.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:53 PM   #30
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I installed a set of JT's on my Monty Memorial weekend, and a set of eliminators on my buddies Komfort at the same time. Both of us need a cross member in the rear to finish the job but it's not easy to find a metal fab shop open on a holiday weekend. We actually tried!

The JT's are made better without a doubt. The Eliminators are made in China, it says so right on the box. Personally I try to avoid things made in China if I can. I don't doubt that they will do the job, but there are differences in the quality of the welds etc. Time will tell which rusts out first.

The eliminators are packaged better. Each type of nut, washer and so on is in it's own labeled bag. That made installation a little easier.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:58 AM   #31
sreigle
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My 3400 has a cross member that they used but I'm wondering if it is flexing a bit. It's an L channel rather than a box.

We were initially very pleased with the performance, once I got things tightened up after CW screwed it all up. But having lived with it for awhile I think they should be eliminating more movement than they are. I had a nice chat with a very knowledgeable tech at Ultra-Fab about ours and discovered a couple more problems with the install.

First, CW installed the front arms to about the fifth hole from the bottom in the landing gear. I need to move them down to a lower hole so our landing gear comes up higher when we're on the road.

Second, CW drilled out those fifth holes from the bottom so they could insert the bushing through which the mounting bolt goes through. The tech tells me the bushings are only for use when there are larger holes. The bushings fill the holes so the bolts don't have any slop. Geez, CW, did you do anything right?

Also, the mounting bolts to go through the telescoping rear stabilizers are supposed to replace the bolts holding the footpad. But they're not long enough for our stabilizers. So, CW drilled a hole in the sheetmetal of the side rear stabilizers and bolted the mounts through that hole. I'm not sure that sheetmetal doesn't flex with pressure. I'm going to go to Lowe's and get couplers, studs, washers and nuts and do it the right way.

Last, I need to drop the belly pan and make sure they actually mounted to that cross member and see if that member will flex. If it does, then I'll need to do something about that, too.

Overall, we're pleased but I think it could be even better with a little bit of work, which CW should have done in the first place.

Thanks for the info on the differences between the two brands. Yours is the first comparison I've seen from someone who has actually installed both, side to side. Time will tell how well these hold up. So far they look to be strong and effective, when installed correctly that is.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:10 PM   #32
sreigle
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Well, I found another CW installation screwup that no doubt affects the effectiveness of the rear stabilizers. When the frame is covered by a bellypan they are to use a spacer. That spacer is mounted to the bellypan/frame with 3/8 inch self drilling screws. The stabilizer mount is then mounted to the spacer.

The spacer has predrilled holes matching the supplied 3/8 inch self drilling screws. But, CW, in all its wisdom, chose not to use the provided 3/8 inch screws. Instead, they used their own 3/16 inch (half the thickness) self drilling screws and washers to help keep the head from pulling through the hole.

Now, it doesn't take many smarts to figure out that the sideways pressure the stabilizers are trying to stop can easily slide the spacer sideways because the screw does not completely fill the hole. The screw on the right was supplied with the kit. The one on the left is what CW decided to use instead.


I removed one of the screws, enlarged the hole to the prescribed 5/16 inch, then attempted to install one of the 3/8 screws. I was unable to get it to take a bite (which may be why CW switched screws). Tomorrow I'll try Robbie's suggestion and tap it in with a hammer a little and see if it will then bite. If not, there's a fastener store down the street that hopefully would have the 3/8 screw in a bit more aggressive thread to get a better bite. If that doesn't work I'll have to figure out how to get my hand up in the belly to throughbolt these things. The location is close to where the rear endcap rolls under to meet the bellypan. So space for my hand will be tough to come by, especially with these spacers holding things down.

Hopefully this will improve the performance of the rear bars. The only other question is whether the crossmember is rigid enough. I think it is but time will tell.
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:27 PM   #33
jim n deb
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just received my jt from dryers. this is a company I found when I googled jtstrongarm.yhey were 269.98 plus shipping which was about 29.00 Iwill start to install them tomorrow. they are also made in china. jim
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Old 05-30-2008, 03:21 PM   #34
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Quote:
quote:Also, the mounting bolts to go through the telescoping rear stabilizers are supposed to replace the bolts holding the footpad. But they're not long enough for our stabilizers. So, CW drilled a hole in the sheetmetal of the side rear stabilizers and bolted the mounts through that hole. I'm not sure that sheetmetal doesn't flex with pressure. I'm going to go to Lowe's and get couplers, studs, washers and nuts and do it the right way.
Steve - I have the JT's and in response to the bolts bending on the rear stablizers, I called and spoke with the owner/designer of the JT's. He suggested to drill a hole about an inch above the bottom foot pad bolt and install the JT bolt in this new hole.
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:37 PM   #35
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Steve, on the JT's instruction sheet they say to buy or use a 3/8 inch tap to get the "self" tappers started. That made the whole job much easier and I didn't need to cut my hands to shreds trying to reach up into the space between the frame and the skirt metal.The idiot that did your install was too lazy to go get a tap to do it right.. Dave
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Old 05-31-2008, 01:17 PM   #36
sreigle
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Michael, that's exactly what CW did on those rear ones. I guess they did something right, afterall.

Dave, I don't know why I didn't think of a tap. I dug out the installation instructions and it mentions using a 5/16 drill bit and a 3/8-16 tap. But, of course, they didn't provide the tap and I let mine go when we sold our furnishings. So today I went out to Ace Hardware and bought the tap and handle. Tomorrow I'll take care of those bolts. Since the smaller bolt in the larger hole of the spacer allows movement of the stabilizer arms, I'm expecting this fix to make a difference.

Thanks to all for the great info. What a terrific group.
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Old 06-01-2008, 02:54 AM   #37
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I didnt read the instructions too carefully but I ended up drilling and tapping all of the holes, the self tappers they provided were garbage.
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:32 AM   #38
sreigle
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Snownyet, I noticed on the bag of bolts they are not really self-tapping. It says they are self-drilling. I didn't realize the difference until I stopped in at a fastener specialty store (Fastenal in Santa Fe, NM) and asked.

But, by jove, I believe we have success! I went out and bought a tap and handle, drilled the holes, tapped them, installed the bolts. Now the performance of these stabilizers is what we expected. It's only been an hour or so but it appears the ONLY movement we have now is a tiny bit of up and down movement when someone walks hard. And that is likely flex in the floorboards.

I might note we also have scissor jacks behind the rear wheels that eliminate up and down motion due to the suspension. The JT's and Eliminators probably don't get rid of vertical movement, do they? So the scissor jacks take care of that.

A side note, when I spoke with the technician at the mfr for the Eliminators he told me two things they don't put in the manual because, he said, people tend to think if a little is ok, then more must be better and they damage things.

One is to crank the rear stabilizers as much as possible without damaging them. I normally go to snug plus one turn. Two turns at one time is too difficult. However, snug plus one turn on each, then another turn on each, is doable and seems to help. That's before cranking down the T handles.

The other thing is that after all T handles are cranked down tight, bump the landing gear one quick notch with the electric switch. He told me they do not put this in the manual for the reason mentioned above. I know Robbie told me he does this and it helps.

It's only been an hour but we finally seem to be getting the excellent performance we expected. To be honest, I was beginning to wonder whether we were getting our money's worth. Now I know we did. Hopefully I'll feel the same tomorrow when we've had more time to see how well they work.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:03 AM   #39
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Steve, after I installed the JT's I re-read the instructions and it said to get the trailer level then drop the front one inch, then drop the back jacks tight and then bring the front back to level then tighten the T-bolts. That way you don't have to fight cranking the back jacks down too tight, you get then to your snug plus one turn and then bring the front back up to level which loads the back jacks more and also puts more on the landing gear. I watched and listened when I did this and I can hear some of the load coming off the springs too. I like your idea about the jacks on the shackles to take the bounce out but I will only do that when we are parked for a month or more as I have buried my extra jacks deep in the truck tool box... Dave
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Old 06-01-2008, 02:12 PM   #40
sreigle
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Dave, that's a good idea. The Eliminator manual does not say that same thing. Actually, that's how I used to set the jacks, but maybe not a full inch. Somewhere along the line I quit doing that. But I think I'll try that method next time.

My additional center jacks are not on the shackles. They're permanently mounted to the frame with the supplied self-tapping screws. All I have to do is use my drill to crank them down to just snug. That eliminates much of the up and down bouncing that the JT's and Eliminators won't help with.
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