just a thought on quality

[bobby A]

I can't help but wondering because of all the turmoil in Elkhart if quality is suffering ?? Don't know how the manufactureing process are done with these RV companys but I just retired from a auto manufacturing company so I'am very knowledgable about that process. When an auto company goes through lay-offs, those guys on the line are skilled and very good at there jobs, so if they get layed off the line forman has to get somebody on that job that is less experianced than the original operator. The good news for the auto's is there is so much better quality control to catch the defects that the new operator missed. We all know that quality control is poor at best for these RV companys. So I can't help but wonder, is quality suffering ???

[Fire5er]

So maybe without the RV demand they can start to focus on quality control in these slow times...but then again maybe not. I don't think its a big issue for them. If the customer (us) will purchase what they deliver they will continue to deliver us what we purchase. I know many who just take what is delivered to them and they live with it. Not much incentive for the RV industry to make any changes if they can sell inferior products. I, like many here and on other forums, only gave the dealer a small down payment, one that I was willing to walk away from if the unit was not to may liking upon delivery. I also had the dealer write in the purchase contract that sale was not final until the unit passes the customer's (me) PDI. If we don't demand it quality will never improve.

[bobby A]

I totally agree fire5er, great comments and good idea on just giving a small down pymt. something you could walk away from. If these RV companys would spend more time on quality it wouldn't take much time before it got out to the general RV public (us) and customers would flock to that manufacture thats producing a quality unit. Also, it cost the manufacture money for the dealerships to fix the defects, the dealership doesn't do the work for free, they charge the manufacture.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Some very good thoughts and ideas here.

[adelmoll]

With a new Big Sky on order, we sure hope someone is taking care of business at the Montana plant. I do know that we will not take delivery until it passes our PDI. I will be sending our salesman a copy of it this week. I have already warned him about it at the time of the order.

Helen

[bobby A]

Congrats on the Big Sky on order, we have an 03 Big Sky and have totally loved it ever since we ordered it and took delivery of it. It's been a wonderful unit. We are getting the itch for a new unit though. We are getting close to full time. I sure do like the comments that fire5er has, I will try to keep that in mind if and when we order our new unit.

[bobby A]

It sure does seem that all the negative comments we hear about our units is directed toward a bad experiance at a dealership. Wheather it be the lack of attention after the sale or bad or shoddy workmanship from service. I think we might have this wrong, we should blam the manufacture for the lack of quality, then it may weed out the bad business/shoddy service dealerships, and put more presure on the manufacture to build a quality unit.

[bobby A]

Even in a union plant, you will still get not so qualified workers replacing the qualified experianced worker that was laid off, due to the bidding process for jobs, so the filo/lifo is not necessarly true.

[exav8tr]

I am reminded of a famous line in a not so distant movie: "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are gonna get!!!"

[richfaa]

There is no way to compare anything in the auto industry with anything in the RV industry it terms or workmanship or quality or skilled labor A tour of any manufacturers plant would be enlightening. Instability in the workforce always cause a downturn in moral and workforce attitude affects everything across the board.Also the manufacturer is responsible for the quality, construction, vendor supplied materials, dealers of their product. The maufacturere has the utimate and final decision making power in the quality and workanship of the product. Not the vendor, not the dealer. We gave the dealer ZERO down payment and only wrote the check after two days of PDI. Note that this dealer had no poblem with that as he knew what he would deliver to the customer.

[Delaine and Lindy]

Q/C by the RV industry is poor at best. As for PDI's we have owned more than one 5th wheel and I'm here to tell you the vast majority of the PDI's done really don't do much good. For example how many times have you insisted on a pressure check of the water systems? How many times have you done a PDI prior to signing paper work? To really do a good PDI I really believe you should have a trained RV tech do the PDI. Its literally a 1000 things that could be checked, but do you have the time or ability to do the checks. How many times during the PDI have you removed the basement walls and looked at plumbing and wiring if you haven't you are in for a surprise, its really amazing anything works on some RV's. Back a few months ago we picked-up a new 2009 model RV. Went thru the PDI, as most know you can't check the sewer system, you can't check the Satellite system and most don't check the Microwave. Well what little we could check worked. We went back to our home base. Had several water leaks and the heating system vents didn't work. Since we had owned other 5th wheels I was able to repair those item. Well we use the 2009 5er for 8 nights and decide it wasn't for us. Went and traded for another 2009 SOB. This time before we signed the paper work, it was in the deal we would be put in a RV park for a week and they would pay, and they did. We did a PDI of 3 days but was in the park for a week. And the major problem was the Sattelite system. You have to realize the RV we have is wired for Sattelite system thru out the entire system, roof, basement and the bedroom and living area. Dozens of wires, RG-6 type, however most people doing the PDI don't have a clue about the Sattelite system, they had to get a tech (Geek type) to make everything work. We were well taken care of. And we have been almost 5 months in this 5th wheel and haven't had no issues. I highly suggest at least a week at the dealership in a full hook up RV park to make sure everything possible is used and or checked. I also think if your going to use a Sattelite system you must set the Dish up and make sure it works. And no you can't compare the RV industry to the Auto industry. GBY...

[exav8tr]

Perhaps what we need in this industry are what we have in the housing industry - Inpsectors that are paid to do a thorough PDI for the consumer. This could be a job generated by the stimulus package to insure consumers are getting what they pay for. I'm sure many on this forum could qualify for such a position, however, they probably need to be certified RV techs.

I have bought one used vehicle that I took to a garage to have checked out, don't know why we couldn't do that for this industry. Any dealer that would not agree to this should be overlooked and reported to the local BBB and to Keystone. Of course, this guy must be an independent and not work for any dealer. As I said in an earlier post, our unit must have been gone over pretty good as we have had very few problems. Maybe Cathy & I are just lucky or someone was looking out for us as first time RVers......

[HamRad]

Phil,

That is an excellent idea. I do hope you're not just being sarcastic. I assume the "stimulus" remark is along those lines.

But the basic idea is actually a very worthwhile idea. The manufacturer, however, is not going to want to pay for that and if it cost too much the customer would not want to pay for it either.

I like it. Way to go Phil.

Dennis

[exav8tr]

I would not expect the dealer or manufacturer to pay for the inspection. This would be up to the customer as it is when buying a house. The results could be negotiable. Potential buyers could negotiate what should be repaired/replaced or left up to owner. For example, loose screws may be repaired by buyer, missing sewer hose could be negotiable. OR, buyer could require everything be perfect or walk away if dealer not willing to comply.

Yeah, Dennis, the stimulus remark was somewhat sarcastic, BUT this would create jobs, right????

[HamRad]

Phil,

Yes. It should create some jobs.

Dennis

[Delaine and Lindy]

I was in someplace were a RV repair guy would PDI new units for a price. Stimulus.......... GBY....

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Since my last post on this thread has been removed, I'll try again. In my experience with over 40 years in industries where quality was and is paramount, the way the layoffs have been announced as coming up in 2 weeks to 2 months by the manufacturers can only have a very negative effect on quality of units built during this period. It has been accepted by most indistries that if a layoff is required, do it now and get it over with immediately and then hope there won't be more required later on. Giving employees a period of additional uncertainty just aggravates an already bad situation. And productivity and quality deteriorates significantly.

As far as doing a better job of PDI's I just don't hold much hope that that will improve things all that much in that so many problems are well hidden until a few trips are taken and enough use stress has occurred. We did dry camp 3 days next to the dealer, which uncovered several issue and then wet camped for 3 more days next to the dealer. That uncovered a huge amount of issues. The most significant were major water leaks. I've given some thoughts to how that could be uncovered in a PDI and have come up with this. If there was a way to continuasly pulsate the water pressure for a period of time I suspect all the loose fittings would be found. In our experience it took several hookups/disconnects to uncover all the loose fittings and I suspect appeared due to various water pressures and repeated flushing of the commode and faucet shutoffs, etc. A pulsating water pressure procedure should expediate the discovery of those issues. And yes we were using a water pressur regulator which, IMHO, only delayed the diuscovery of all the leaking connections. Maybe running a fairly high water pressure with a repeated sudden and fast turn on, shut off, blead down, turn on procedure might be close to expediting these failures. It would be desireable though for the factory to perform this kind of testing before the unit left the floor. But in thinking about many of the failures we have had, I don't think even a very through PDI would have uncovered a cracked black tank, peeled decals, cabinet doors falling off, DC wiring connections going open, tires failing, latches not holding doors closed in transit, wires shorting out causing fires, fuses blowing, circuit breaker failures etc, etc. These are just a short list and not anywhere close to the total of the issues we have experienced, that wouldn't typically be found in a PDI. But the real solution is quality needs to be built in, not inspected in.

[Delaine and Lindy]

When we pick-up the Cambridge 358 prior to the PDI I went by the shop and the Cambridge was hook-up to water system and was being pressure checked and was talking to the Tech and he showed me the meter and it read 110 lbs. Now I had read someplace that the water systems were pressure checked to 80lbs. Don't know for sure but the 20,000 mile trip we did have a leak behind the shower. Went to Camp Keystone and it was fixed, we thought but had to go back a few months later before they really got it fixed. We only had three issues with the Cambridge 358, the two water leaks, had to replace all the Tredit Aluminum wheels and other things that the Service center replaced for what ever reason (Thanks Darrel). With both 5er's from Keystone we had less than 10 very minor issures, and Keystone took care of them. If I owned a Keystone product I would sometime during the 1 year go to the Service Center and have the Pro's take care of the problems. We are going to Goshen in June and are making a list of problems on our (SOB) so for the list is blank but have only been in the 5er about 5 months. GBY....

[Dean A Van Peursem]

If we lived anywhere near Goshen we would rack up a significant amount of frequent visitor points at Camp Keystone! :-) Wonder if those points could be used for out of warranty expenses? :-) Might be worth a 2500 mile trip each way.

[stevemc]

Lack of quality in the RV industry has long been a pet peeve of mine. We made several repairs and improvements to our unit the first few times we used it due to either inadequate materials or construction practices. I have worked many years in the quality profession, currently for a construction equipment manufacturer. It is a fact that when times get tough, the first things cut are the quality and training programs. These are the quickest places to reduce direct expenses but also can cause to most long term damage to the companies products and reputation. Most company management still see quality and training as an expense instead of an investment. Quality has to be built into the manufacturing processes and will absolutely pay for itself if taken seriously and done correctly. RV's do have some unique challanges due to the rigors of the road but certainly nothing that couldn't (and shouldn't) be addressed in the design stage. The industry has a long ways to go and now would be a good time for Keystone to step up and take a leadership role in improving the quality standards. "Too expensive" is just an excuse for those who don't understand the concept.

We are considering trading for a new unit and will probably stick with Montana, but lack of quality in construction and materials is a huge concern; and it absolutely shouldn't be on a product that expensive.

Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox now.

Steve
American Society for Quality
Certified Quality Technician
Certified Quality Auditor
Certified Quality Engineer