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Old 11-27-2009, 01:54 PM   #1
hookman
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Ground Bonding Neutral Your Generator

These are ways to ground bond you system when using a Generator.
http://members.rennlist.org/warren/gt5000c.html
Or make a short extenision cord with the neutral bond. It will prevent shocks. The engineer that said this would work said you should also have a groung stake attached to the frame. The cord sould have a jumper between the neutral and ground.
 
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Old 11-28-2009, 02:29 AM   #2
nailbender
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I have a transfer switch and a hard wired surge guard and couldn't get power to the camper using a Honda generator. The surge guard remote monitor displayed a "open ground" message. I first tired running a ground wire from the Honda to the camper and didn't have power. Then I tried using a short extension cord as you described and still didn't have power. Finally I used both the extension cord and ground wire to the camper and had power. I know a ground rod would be the safest method, but removing a 8" ground rod out is not easy. I considered installing a selector switch to by-pass the surge guard, but haven't found one.
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:06 AM   #3
KTManiac
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Don,

Just go to Home Depot(or hardware store) and get a male repair plug for an extension cord. Then use a short piece of insulated wire to link the neutral and ground prongs within the plug itself. I got an orange one that is rectangular and marked it with a sharpie pen as "neutral-ground bond plug". Plug it into the 20 amp receptacle of the generator, start the genny, plug your trailer cord into the genny's other plug-in. Et voilà!, open ground problem solved.

The qualified electricians here should be able to give us the pros and cons of this solution. It works, and is easily reversible. If you stand around bare footed, in a mud puddle, holding on to the generator frame, in the rain, I suppose you could eventually get electrocuted, given the right circumstances.

It works for me.

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Old 11-28-2009, 09:24 AM   #4
Tom S.
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by KTManiac


Don,

Just go to Home Depot(or hardware store) and get a male repair plug for an extension cord. Then use a short piece of insulated wire to link the neutral and ground prongs within the plug itself. I got an orange one that is rectangular and marked it with a sharpie pen as "neutral-ground bond plug". Plug it into the 20 amp receptacle of the generator, start the genny, plug your trailer cord into the genny's other plug-in. Et voilà!, open ground problem solved.

The qualified electricians here should be able to give us the pros and cons of this solution. It works, and is easily reversible. If you stand around bare footed, in a mud puddle, holding on to the generator frame, in the rain, I suppose you could eventually get electrocuted, given the right circumstances.

It works for me.

Which part works for you - the plug or getting electrocuted?
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:55 AM   #5
snfexpress
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KTManiac,

With two Hondas, do you need two plugs as you described?
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:07 AM   #6
Countryfolks
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Concerning 8' ground rods, I wonder if laying the rod on the ground and covering it with dirt [wetting it occasionally] would work as well as pounding in into the ground. It still has 8 feet of contact with the earth and would be a lot easier to recover. If that would work, an 8' piece of bare copper wire should work also.
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:45 AM   #7
hookman
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You only use one bonding if you use 2 you create a loop and defeat the purpose. The park shore power is bonded that is why they don't bond the trailer wiring. There is only 1 bonding point in your stick house and that is in the panel. DON'T FORGET TO REMOVE YOUR GROUND BONDING BEFORE HOOKING UP TO SHORE POWER!!!!!!!
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Old 11-28-2009, 11:21 PM   #8
KTManiac
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by snfexpress

KTManiac,

With two Hondas, do you need two plugs as you described?
I haven't gotten that far with it yet, but considering that when you parallel the two generators, part of that is a ground wire between the two generators. Off the top of my head, I would think that the one bonding plug would be all that is needed, but I am not certain on this. I will look into this a bit more, as I will need to do this some time in the future if I want to run my A/C with the generators.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by hookman

You only use one bonding if you use 2 you create a loop and defeat the purpose. The park shore power is bonded that is why they don't bond the trailer wiring. There is only 1 bonding point in your stick house and that is in the panel. DON'T FORGET TO REMOVE YOUR GROUND BONDING BEFORE HOOKING UP TO SHORE POWER!!!!!!!
If I'm not mistaken, your automatic transfer switch would isolate the shore bonding from the generator bonding when it switches between the different sources. If you don't have a transfer switch, and are just using the anaconda, you are the "not so automatic" transfer switch and are isolating the two by unplugging the power cord from the genny and then plugging into the pedestal. This is assuming that you have plugged in your special bonding plug directly into the generator panel, and not downstream somewhere in the trailer, in which case the Surge Guard would not allow power to the trailer since it will still see an open ground from the generator.

But, your point is taken. You do not want to have your trailer circuits neutral to ground bonded somehow, and then plug in to shore power at the same time. At least that is how I understand it.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:44 AM   #9
hookman
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Before you neutral bonding check to make sure your generator is not already bonded Honda EU2000i sold in the US are not the Canadian ones might be to conform to CSA. CHECK YOUR GENERATOR BEFORE YOU BOND IT!!!!! REMEMBER ONLY ONE NEUTRAL BONDING POINT IN THE WHOLE SYSTEM!!!!
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:12 PM   #10
KTManiac
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Excellent point!

...and one that I was going to bring up. Further reading on the matter brought to my attention that at one point the Canadian eu2000's could not be paralleled because they are bonded units. I am not sure if this is still the case at this time....more research is required, I guess.

Which brings me to a post that I read about someone having a US version and trying to parallel it with his f-i-l's CDN unit. I guess that it did not work. So, I am not sure if it will work at all with paralleled generators. My thinking is that if just one is bonded, then perhaps the two of them may not sync up properly, I don't know.

Are there any electrical engineers here that might shed some light on this? I guess if there is no joy with bonding parallel units, the best thing to do would then be to bypass the EMS altogether when using generator power.

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Old 11-29-2009, 02:16 PM   #11
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I think Larry Cad over on rv.net pretty much has all the answers you need in his post on the subject. Just do a search.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:34 PM   #12
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quote:Originally posted by farmboy

I think Larry Cad over on rv.net pretty much has all the answers you need in his post on the subject. Just do a search.
Lots of info out there, but nothing about the bonding of paralleled Honda's that I can find. With around $2,000 tied up in the 2 Honda's, I am reluctant to experiment beyond the bounds of my limited knowledge. I have been looking and looking for some kind of confirmation as to whether it is possible, or not, but to no avail. The Honda Power Equipment division guys, for sure, aren't going to stick their necks out by suggesting any type of mods that would solve this. Too bad that, as they would know for certain if it is do-able without any harmful effects to the inverter circuitry of linked generators due to synchronization issues.

I just don't know enough about it to make myself go out to the driveway and try it. I really hate letting the magic smoke out of my electronic goodies. Lord knows that I have done so too many times in the past!

I know for sure that the modified plug end works on a single generator, as I have actually done so with it being plugged in to the 20 amp receptacle, and my trailer power cord plugged in to the 30 amp twist-lock of the eu2000 Companion. It resolves the open ground seen by my hardwired 50 amp Surge Guard Plus. They used to have a bypass switch on this models remote display which made this a non-issue, but now do not offer it any longer. Another corporate CYA liability deal on Surge Guards part, I would suppose.


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Old 11-30-2009, 03:26 AM   #13
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To easily solve the ground problem when using a generator, I am considering adding a 30 amp connection at the front of the camper and run a line to a j-box located between the surge guard and electric panel. This line would bypass the surge guard and the transfer switch and instead of buying another transfer switch for the new line, install a cut off switch inside the basement. I don’t think there would be any feed back through the surge guard. Do you guys see any problems with this?
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:45 AM   #14
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Don,
By transfer switch do you mean an automatic switch for the gen-set prep such as the Iota that I have detailed the neutral to ground tie before. If it is the same, I did as you are describing and added a front power receptacle for the generaor. I tied the neutral and ground together on the generator side of the switch only (the front receptacle) inside of the Iota switch. I have posted pictures of this in the past and will try to find them if you think it will assist. I have the hard-wired EMS system as well as a removable Autoformer. Let me know.
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:01 AM   #15
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If I am not mistaken the electrical voltage/current in an inverter type generator is electronicly generated(made). The rules my be different on grounding the neutral. Does anybody know how an inverter style generator really works? I have an idea but not completely sure about it.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:39 AM   #16
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Bingo, Yes I have the Iota 50 amp for the 50amp inlet in the front that I use for shore power. I have seen pictures of what you have done, but didn't notice how you wired the 30 amp connection. Do you think installing a rotary switch to change the ground from the ground lug to the neutral lug would work. I don't to make the front inlet dedicated to the generator only as I like to use it for shore power. With a switch I could change from shore power to a generator and not have to unhook and reconnect the ground.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:52 AM   #17
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My front receptacle is wired for 50 amp, but I use an adaptor since I don't have a 50 amp generator. I don't see why the switch wouldn't work, but it would seem simpler to use a bonded pigtail (Can be constructed from parts at Home Depot). Use the pigail on the generator only and not if you want to use shore power. Just a thought.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:29 AM   #18
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I did make a bonded pigtail but didn't have power to the camper until I also ran a ground wire from the generator to the camper frame. Not sure if that would be safe setup when having rain.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:16 PM   #19
hookman
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All house circuits are neutral ground bonded in the electrical breaker box. All park shore power systems are also bonded. Most generator are not bonded and you should check your owner manual or contact the manufacturer. The RV's do not have neutral ground bonding because you plug them in at the RV Park or at home which have bonding already. This done for safety and that is why I will make up either a plug with a jumper between the ground and the neutral or a short extension cord with a jumper on the male end. If you parallel your generators and put a plug in one of the wall plugs it will bond you system.
Before I posted this subject I checked with the Electrical Engineer at work and he told me this was safe to do and the only thing that would make safer would be to drive a ground rod into the ground and hook it to the trailer in case you had a major surge like a lightning strike. He also said 120 volt systems should be neutral ground bonded for safety. If you are not sure about this check with an Electrical Engineer before you do anything. It is electricity and it is better safe than sorry.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:33 PM   #20
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Earlier I ask if anyone knew how an inverter type generator worked. I found my answer on the Honda generator web site. They do not work like the contractor tpye as there is no direct coralation between the alternator out put to the inverter and the output for your use. In the inverter style the ac out put is computer controled elecronicaly made modified sign wave. It is not made the same way as the shore power by the utility. Thus the reason they are so much better than a contractor style for you electronic equipment in your rigs. There is a lot more to it than I will go into here. If you want to PM me I will give you more info as I know it from both reading and my experience. I know this does not answer the question about bonding, but I beleive most of the discussion to date has addressed contractor style not inverter style. Ther is a huge difference between them. I have no advice on bonding at this time.
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