Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > General Discussions about our Montanas
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-15-2019, 09:35 PM   #1
glendodom
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Terry
Posts: 76
M.O.C. #22698
Hydraulic Pump Breaker Upgrade

I have a 2018 3721RL with the inverter for the refrigerator.

Earlier back in the winter months I was having issues with the slides and level-up system stopping and basically rebooting. Based on Lippert guidance (attached) it advised upgrading the 50 amp breaker to an 80 amp. I did so but continued having issues.

I now have an inverter issue whereas it has evidently blown an internal fuse according to the Magnum Dimension Tech. In my research now in chasing wires, I have figured out my unit's wiring to the inverter comes off of the battery through a breaker, thru a cutoff switch direct to the inverter.

The breaker I upgraded was to the inverter not the hydraulic pump since the picture showed a Busman breaker that looks identical to the one going to the inverter.

Now I am confused, the breaker to the inverter was originally a 50 and the manual states not to exceed 150 amp, so I guess the 80 I put in is ok for the inverter? Can anyone give me a good part of the breaker for the pump or is it the same type of breaker that is used on the inverter line? Thanks
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 80 amp breaker lippert0058.pdf (51.9 KB, 186 views)
glendodom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2019, 11:25 PM   #2
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 2,918
M.O.C. #12947
I guess you already figured out that the new breaker you installed has nothing to do with the hydraulic pump, and that is why you are still having the same issue with the hydraulics. The replacement breaker will be installed in place of the breaker that has the cable going to the hydraulic pump. You may also have a second cable attached to the same terminal as the pump cable, but however the old breaker is wired, wire the 80 amp breaker exactly the same way. You will probably have to enlarge the holes in the ring connectors so they will fit the terminals on the 80 amp breaker. This is a link to one of these breakers listed on ebay, but you may be able to find them in some auto parts stores. https://www.ebay.com/itm/80-Amp-HI-A...-/141120902895


This is a photo of where my 80 amp breaker was installed, and you will see a small breaker next to it, but that breaker has never had a problem so it wasn't changed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 80 amp pump breaker.jpg (63.6 KB, 98 views)
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2019, 11:35 PM   #3
Carl n Susan
Site Team
 
Carl n Susan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 4,121
M.O.C. #4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by glendodom View Post

I now have an inverter issue whereas it has evidently blown an internal fuse according to the Magnum Dimension Tech. In my research now in chasing wires, I have figured out my unit's wiring to the inverter comes off of the battery through a breaker, thru a cutoff switch direct to the inverter.

The breaker I upgraded was to the inverter not the hydraulic pump since the picture showed a Busman breaker that looks identical to the one going to the inverter.

Now I am confused, the breaker to the inverter was originally a 50 and the manual states not to exceed 150 amp, so I guess the 80 I put in is ok for the inverter? Can anyone give me a good part of the breaker for the pump or is it the same type of breaker that is used on the inverter line? Thanks
The RV uses two circuit beakers (originally both are 59 amp unless someone has changed one as recommended).

The inverter does *NOT* use a self resetting circuit breaker. It uses a 300 amp fusible link. It looks completely different than the self resetting cb. It is the long thing on the left is the picture below. If you did change the fuse to a 50 amp cb I can see why the inverter is having problems.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MOC - CB Pic.jpg (168.3 KB, 296 views)
__________________
Carl (n Susan) Youngren
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB

Carl n Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2019, 05:53 AM   #4
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 562
M.O.C. #21044
Breaker

I have a 2018 model and I am confused like the original poster. My issues started in month 11 of ownership. My unit had a 50 amp (black) manual reset breaker on the red wire going to the inverter switch (round red/green switch in the pics below). Carl’s pic is of a 2019 and it shows a magnum fuse in the same position as my OEM 50 amp resettable CB. This CB is the thing on my unit that was tripping during hydraulic system operation. I replaced it with an 80 amp CB and tightened all connections in the front compartment (because I did not realize it was the inverter wire not the pump wire)and fortunately had no issues until July 4th weekend when the system tripped. The 80 amp on the inverter line tripped first and I went out and reset the blade switch. Then the hydraulic system “paused” (tripped) but reset itself and continued to operate. This tells me it was the OEM 50 amp auto reset CB to the pump. It is the red capped item on the left. In the second pic you can see the red wire going from the red capped breaker on the left to the pump. I ordered another 80 amp CB yesterday and will replace it this week before we leave this weekend.

I don’t understand why the CB in the inverter line has been tripping - the OEM 50 amp and the replacement 80 amp. Again - I replaced the 50 amp on the inverter line because it looked just like the pics that have been shared in the many threads about the hydraulic system tripping (translation: I replaced it out of ignorance and luck I suppose). I did not know what those 2 little red capped things were. However I am not going to reinstall the OEM 50 amp CB...generally things are better now than they were in December.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0283156C-BA39-48AB-A99A-632B6E68D57D.jpg (178.7 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg 95C29608-6142-4D27-94E7-562094516361.jpg (221.3 KB, 40 views)
__________________
Mikendebbie Austin TX - Aggie '77
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Three cute Aussies Gus+Fern+Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2019, 06:14 AM   #5
WeBeFulltime
Montana Master
 
WeBeFulltime's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hixson
Posts: 3,094
M.O.C. #11397
Quote:
Originally Posted by carl n susan View Post
The RV uses two circuit beakers (originally both are 59 amp unless someone has changed one as recommended).

The inverter does *NOT* use a self resetting circuit breaker. It uses a 300 amp fusible link. It looks completely different than the self resetting cb. It is the long thing on the left is the picture below. If you did change the fuse to a 50 amp cb I can see why the inverter is having problems.
My 2018.5 doesn't have a fusible link like this going to the inverter. It has a resettable breaker.
__________________
2018.5 Montana 3791RD
2012 F350 SRW 6.7 PSD

Full Timing since September 1, 2010
WeBeFulltime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 05:35 AM   #6
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 562
M.O.C. #21044
Circuit breaker

The mystery continues...we were loading up a few items last night for an upcoming trip and I was in the basement compartment. Looked up and the inverter was off. Checked the 80 amp circuit breaker that is on the inverter wire and it was tripped. I reset it and inverter came on fine. Have no idea when it tripped. I am plugged into shore power. I plan to start paying more attention to this situation to figure out what activity trips the inverter line. I will call magnum today and see if they can help.
__________________
Mikendebbie Austin TX - Aggie '77
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Three cute Aussies Gus+Fern+Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 09:01 AM   #7
gjennings
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: West Jordan
Posts: 47
M.O.C. #22840
Following
__________________
Glade and Laura
2019 3791RD Montana
2018 GMC 3500 6.6 diesel short bed
Not full timers yet but soon
gjennings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 09:54 AM   #8
ChuckS
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mountain Home
Posts: 249
M.O.C. #20949
Sure sounds like inverter is not wired correctly. 300 amp fuse is what should be online from battery to inverter DC input
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 7D55855F-6680-4172-9CD6-640DBC0622E0.jpg (271.3 KB, 31 views)
ChuckS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 12:09 PM   #9
Arkware
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mena
Posts: 303
M.O.C. #17723
Mikendebbie,

Have to agree with ChuckS. On my 2015 w/1000w inverter I have a 150a breaker.

Your 2018 should have a 2000w inverter and 300a breaker.

I hope you kept the old one.....
__________________
Ron & Rhonda
2015 Montana 3611RL 8K I.S., Disk Brakes, Sailun Tires
2015 F350 XLT Crew Dually 20K B&W Companion
Arkware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 12:41 PM   #10
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 562
M.O.C. #21044
inverter

I have a Magnum CSW 1012 inverter (1000 watt). The OEM circuit breaker on the inverter line was a 50 amp. I called Magnum yesterday and the guy was puzzled why they (Keystone) would have installed a 50 amp CB on the inverter wire/line. I would be curious if any 2018 and older models have an in-line fuse or the circuit breaker. He said they make 125 watt and 200 watt in-line fuses, and the inverter is rated for 150 watts - so the 125 watt inline fuse would work. Then he told me the manf suggested retail price for a 200 watt in-line fuse was $85 but they do not sell direct. You have to get it thru the dealer. Not sure why he gave me a price for a 200 watt when he told me I needed the 125 watt fuse.

There is a pic in this thread (post #3) of a Magnum in-line fuse from a 2019 Monte, but I cannot read the watt size.

Generally - things are working better now with the 80 amp CB I (accidentally) put on the inverter line. I will put the Magnum in-line fuse on my "some day" list. After reading these pump threads - I suspect my inverter fuse popping and the hydraulic pump-stall problem were unrelated. I probably solved my pump issues when I tightened all of the connections. Now I know to check the inverter while in transit an make sure the CB has not popped.

Carl Youngren has been helping me figure this out via some back and forth emails. I did this sketch (attached) of the spidersweb of wire in my front compartment. I am not sure how or where I would install an 80 amp CB on the stuff that feeds the hydraulic pump. Forgive the "technical terms" such as "big red wire" or "small white wire".
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2019-07-18_12-39-04.jpg (77.6 KB, 62 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Sketch of Mike Masons front compartment wiring July 17 2019.pdf (90.7 KB, 48 views)
__________________
Mikendebbie Austin TX - Aggie '77
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Three cute Aussies Gus+Fern+Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 01:55 PM   #11
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 2,918
M.O.C. #12947
The way your drawing is done, you have no breaker protection to the hydraulic pump. You show the big red wire from the battery, hitting the breaker and going to the pump, all on the same terminal, so not going through the breaker.
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 05:01 PM   #12
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 562
M.O.C. #21044
Breaker

If you look at the pic in post #3 above I believe it is the same. It does not make sense to me. I donít understand how the two auto reset CBs are suppose to trip to protect the pump.
__________________
Mikendebbie Austin TX - Aggie '77
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Three cute Aussies Gus+Fern+Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 05:44 PM   #13
Carl n Susan
Site Team
 
Carl n Susan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 4,121
M.O.C. #4831
The problem is the wire from the battery should go to CB C on the right. The wire identified as coming from the battery to CB B is really the wire to feed the fuse panel. Otherwise there would be no 12V inside the coach.
__________________
Carl (n Susan) Youngren
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB

Carl n Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 06:21 PM   #14
gjennings
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: West Jordan
Posts: 47
M.O.C. #22840
My 2019 3791RD is wired the same way as the drawing. Except my breaker going to the 1000 watt inverter is a 150A breaker.

Mikeanddebbie when talking with who you did are you sure he was say 150 watts and not 150AMPs? I’ve never heard of a break being in Watts.
__________________
Glade and Laura
2019 3791RD Montana
2018 GMC 3500 6.6 diesel short bed
Not full timers yet but soon
gjennings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 06:41 PM   #15
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 5,309
M.O.C. #6433
Per the diagram breaker C is in series with breaker B. And that is just wrong and serves no purpose at all. The battery wire should go to the copper pole on one of the breakers with the jumper to the other so that the breakers are each protecting their respective equipment.

But the other 4 wires from the copper poles should have fuse protection somewhere or they are also in the wrong place.
__________________
Bill & Patricia

2007 3075RL
2012 F350 SRW CC LB FX4 6.7
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 07:21 PM   #16
gjennings
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: West Jordan
Posts: 47
M.O.C. #22840
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_TX View Post
Per the diagram breaker C is in series with breaker B. And that is just wrong and serves no purpose at all. The battery wire should go to the copper pole on one of the breakers with the jumper to the other so that the breakers are each protecting their respective equipment.

But the other 4 wires from the copper poles should have fuse protection somewhere or they are also in the wrong place.

So BB_TX if that is wrong wondering if my factory warranty will cover to have the dealer wire it correctly?
__________________
Glade and Laura
2019 3791RD Montana
2018 GMC 3500 6.6 diesel short bed
Not full timers yet but soon
gjennings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 07:24 PM   #17
gjennings
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: West Jordan
Posts: 47
M.O.C. #22840
Mikendebbie

That one big black cable goes to your inverter and the other should be going to your frame for grounding.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikendebbie View Post
I have a Magnum CSW 1012 inverter (1000 watt). The OEM circuit breaker on the inverter line was a 50 amp. I called Magnum yesterday and the guy was puzzled why they (Keystone) would have installed a 50 amp CB on the inverter wire/line. I would be curious if any 2018 and older models have an in-line fuse or the circuit breaker. He said they make 125 watt and 200 watt in-line fuses, and the inverter is rated for 150 watts - so the 125 watt inline fuse would work. Then he told me the manf suggested retail price for a 200 watt in-line fuse was $85 but they do not sell direct. You have to get it thru the dealer. Not sure why he gave me a price for a 200 watt when he told me I needed the 125 watt fuse.

There is a pic in this thread (post #3) of a Magnum in-line fuse from a 2019 Monte, but I cannot read the watt size.

Generally - things are working better now with the 80 amp CB I (accidentally) put on the inverter line. I will put the Magnum in-line fuse on my "some day" list. After reading these pump threads - I suspect my inverter fuse popping and the hydraulic pump-stall problem were unrelated. I probably solved my pump issues when I tightened all of the connections. Now I know to check the inverter while in transit an make sure the CB has not popped.

Carl Youngren has been helping me figure this out via some back and forth emails. I did this sketch (attached) of the spidersweb of wire in my front compartment. I am not sure how or where I would install an 80 amp CB on the stuff that feeds the hydraulic pump. Forgive the "technical terms" such as "big red wire" or "small white wire".
__________________
Glade and Laura
2019 3791RD Montana
2018 GMC 3500 6.6 diesel short bed
Not full timers yet but soon
gjennings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 08:45 PM   #18
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 562
M.O.C. #21044
Breaker

As Carl pointed out my sketch is wrong. I did it by looking at some pics I took and I mistook the red wire routing. Sorry. I will correct that when I get back from our trip.

The inverter is 150 watt not amps. I seem to be missing the in line fuse for the inverter. Also with the rats nest of wires on those two CBs I do not see a clear way to wire in an 80 amp CB for the pump.
__________________
Mikendebbie Austin TX - Aggie '77
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Three cute Aussies Gus+Fern+Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 08:55 PM   #19
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 2,918
M.O.C. #12947
In the drawing, the loop between the B & C breaker corresponds to the loop in the photo, and in the photo, that loop is identified as 12 volts from the battery, which also attaches to the C breaker on it's line side. On the B breaker in the photo, the load side has two wires on the load side, one goes to the pump motor terminal and the other wire on the same load terminal probably goes to the main panel inside the trailer, which is how our rig is wired.
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2019, 09:37 PM   #20
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 5,309
M.O.C. #6433
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjennings View Post
So BB_TX if that is wrong wondering if my factory warranty will cover to have the dealer wire it correctly?
I would hope so. I would certainly be asking the service manager why the two circuit breakers are wired in series and the pump is not protected by either. I would also be asking if those other 4 wires on the copper posts have their own fuse protection.

See if he fumbles for explanations, or says “yes, you are right, that is wrong”.
__________________
Bill & Patricia

2007 3075RL
2012 F350 SRW CC LB FX4 6.7
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×