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Old 11-20-2019, 05:27 PM   #21
mlh
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Rich
All of our presses come with a built in C clamp. We put some padding on the kitchen table and resize there. I’m sure you remember how much pressure it took to size your cases. That isn’t how we do it. Commercial dies resize cases .005 inch. That is way way too much to get the best accuracy out or your rifle. We make resize dies in .0005 increments so you can resize.your case.002. The cases will spring back .001 so they fit in the rifle with almost no play. We only bump the shoulder back .002. Commercial dies bump the shoulder back .005. If you were using commercial dies you could use the hitch on the back of your truck. We use our Combo Press to resize and seat bullets. It has 2 rams one for resize and one to seat bullets. We always use Wilson straight seating dies for bullet seating. They make straighter ammo the the off the shelf dies.

How much better is this? Most reloaders carry their pet target in their wallet. Most of them are in the 3/8 inch range three shot groups. Someone just shot 5, 5 shot groups that all of them were in the zeros as the benchrest shooters say. That means each group measured under .1. In other words each group was the size of a 30 caliber bullet hole. Don’t forget a one mph wind will move a bullet .09 inches and if the sun goes behind a cloud that will make a 1/2 inch difference in the group.
These guys get 3400 FPS our of a 6 mm PPC that only holds 28 grains of power and a 21 inch barrel. A 243 will hold twice as much power for almost the same velocity. The 243 holds way too much power for good accuracy.
Rich look on my web site to see what type of equipment they use. It’s not what you and I started with. Their guns with scope is 10.5 pounds. The scopes are 40 or 45 power. Most of the stocks are western red cedar carbon fiber reinforced. Hard walnut or fiberglass vibrates and makes the gun not shoot as good as it could. The receiver has 2 ports. You load in one port while the rifle ejects through the other. You can shoot faster that way. You wont to put 5 rounds down range as fast as you can before conditions change.
Do a Google search for Toney Boyer. He is the undisputed best benchrest shooter ever. You will find several videos of Tony shooting. You have 7 minutes to shoot. He will normally wait until everyone close finishes. He is also watching conditions when he finds the condition he is looking for he starts shooting and will continue even if conditions change. He knows how to correct for the change.
Watch one of his videos he makes it look so easy. It ain’t.
Lynwood
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:05 AM   #22
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Lynwood, look up 2 stage light gas guns. Nasa uses them. 7Km/s muzzle speed. I used to work on them. I worked on the laser intervelometer and flash xray equipment, besides the controls and instrumentation.

Nothing like capturing the image of a projectile traveling at 7Km/s, 90 nano seconds before impact to get you excited about work.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:04 AM   #23
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Up to 27,500 feet per second!!

Makes the average hunting rifle bullet at 3,000 +/- feet per second sound like it just fell out the end of the barrel.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:07 PM   #24
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Thanks jeffba.
I looked at a couple NASA videos. Very interesting.
I have several questions. They were using a 220 Swift cartage with pistol power. The swift was THE groundhog cartage back in the 50s and 60s. until it got a very undeserved bad reputation. I never owned one my first groundhog gun was a 22 250. PWhat kind of power? How much did the bullet weigh?

This must have been very interesting work. I know it would be for someone like me that has always been interested in rifles, velocity and accuracy.

I don’t think Tony Boyers would haft to be to concerned about changing conditions. He probably would be concerned about a 7 minute time limit to get off 5 shots.

Thanks for sharing. What did you do for this program?
Lynwood
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:38 AM   #25
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There is no doubt in my mind that you make quality equipment and I wish we had it 60 years ago. We no longer do that kind of shooting in fact we never did. We loaded for hunting. We no longer hunt we just target shoot.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:22 PM   #26
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Hi Lynwood,

I left there in 1995. Cool work, but low pay. When I was there we used smokeless powder. the bullet was an aluminum ball It was held in the barrel with a sabot.

The powder was lit off and propelled a piston that compressed either helium or hydrogen (I do not remember which). It compressed the light gas to the point of rupturing a burst disk. That escaping gas propelled the "bullet' down the barrel into a vacuum.

The sabot was nylon and it was traveling so fast that it would leave a footprint in the steel plate stripper, just like making a handprint in cement.

I was an electronic tech. So may job was instrumentation and control. I also did some work with the targets. At the time we had 3 guns. .17 caliber, .357, and 1 inch. The 1 inch I always wanted to shoot into the night sky. At those speeds I envisioned a man made meteor.

My idea for the laser intervelometer beat out the design that a physicist came up with. Mine was simpler and easier to to get repeatable results. It took about 20 manhours to turn the .357 around for a second shot. More depending on the target.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:52 PM   #27
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Interesting jeffba. Thanks for the update.
Rich I never loaded for target shooting. I’m a long range groundhog hunter. 7 to 850 yards wasn’t much problem. I shot one at 1005 yards. I almost got one at 1010 the same afternoon. We videoed them. On the second one when I pulled the trigger he started to walk and by the time the bullet got to him I had shot behind him. You can put your finger on the computer screen where the bullet lands and rerun the video and see I would have shot in front of him but by the time it got to him it was behind him.
I had planned to retire and hunt during the summer but all the groundhogs are gone, coyotes.
A thousand yards isn’t that far. I have a friend in Wyoming who shot a prairie dog at 2157 yards and know a guy who shot one at 2500 yards. I also know a government sniper who shot a “drug kingpin” at 1860 yards in a “major city in Texas” from roof top to roof top. I ask him if he was in the military. He said no he was a government sniper. I ask how much does stuff like this go on. He said “in every major country in the world”. I had no idea. My wife says I live a very sheltered life.
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Old 11-23-2019, 09:49 AM   #28
richfaa
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We were deer hunters in the PA mountains and we loaded for that environment. You could not see 1000 yards in the Mountains.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:02 AM   #29
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Considering that 1760 yards is a mile, I’d have to see some of those 1000-2000 yard shots to believe them. Not doubting you, but that’s a LONG way away.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:41 AM   #30
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I reloaded in the 60s & 70s. 300 Win mag and 30-06. With a lot of work, rebedding, resizing the box to load against the lands, and working up loads, I managed to get 3/4moa all day long. Many, many years have gone by. I recently bought a low end Savage .223 w/3-9 Leupold. I replaced trigger with a Timney for the Axis/Edge. After break-in, it now shoots 3/4moa 5 shot groups using V-Max 40gr Hornady ammo. At age 65+, I cannot imagine dropping a groundhog @1000yd. I practice with a suppressed Sig 10" AR to just stay frosty. Maybe 300 rounds every range session twice a month. 7,200 rounds of practice ammo cost ~$2500/yr. And I could spend less but want decent ammo. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I hand loaded, I might save a small bit of coin but then no time to spend at the range. I can buy reloaded 9mm practice ammo at the gun show from the same bunch that reloads for the sheriff dept but only use factory SD ammo for EDC. I shoot the expensive ammo enough to know that it runs.
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:52 PM   #31
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Long range shooting is all preparation. Your deer gun 270, 30 06 or 30 mag won’t work. At 1000 yards you run out or scope adjustment and shoot way under the target. For 1000 yard shooting you need 20 MOA built in the scope base. A chronograph to check velocity is a must. A 3 inch wide stock, along with a scope level, a wind meter and it’s nice to be able to video your shots.
My friend who shot the prairie dog was shooting a 300 Remington Ultra Mag, 32 inch barrel custom receiver, 32 power Nightforce Scope. That is almost like my groundhog rifle. Mine has a 25 inch barrel custom receiver 32 power Nightforce scope it was a 6X47. That is a 1 3/4 inch long cartage. His rifle had 60 MOA bases.
It took him all summer to bag a prairie dog at 2157 yards. He lived in Green River Wy. He would go out early before the wind started to pickup. He had several dog dens he had put flags at and knew the distance to each one. 5 yards makes a big difference. When one came out he judged the wind made the correction by adjusting his scope. He would fire a shot and get back in the scope before the bullet landed. He would be several feet to several yards off. These scopes have several cross hairs for windage and elevation. Then you make the correction and shoot again before conditions change. Finally he got his prairie dog. He found the 240 grain Burger VLD bullet on the den just like it came out the rifle with the groves in it but with almost no damage. He had the prairie dog mounted with the bullet in his mouth.
If you wish to see the equipment and the story Google, groundhog hunting in Virginia with Lynwood Harrell. I didn’t post this and didn’t know about it for several years until a customer told me about it.
Long range hunting is a fun sport but you are going to miss a lot more times than you hit. 500 yards is a chip shot.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:59 AM   #32
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Thanks Lynwood. I knew there was a lot more to it than dropping the cross-hair intersection on the target. From what you're saying it is equipment, skill, skill, skill & a sprinkling of luck. I've watched video of 100+ yard shots with 22 & 25 caliber PCP air rifles and get that windage has to be figured in. I now only shoot .223/5.56 and under 300yds. Mostly under 25yds in backyard style combat sims. At my age the simple heartbeat will ruin anything beyond 300.


So the only reason people might consider reloading at home might be either tons and tons of ammo sent downrange or the need for super precision and consistent point of impact with expensive and highly specialized rifles?
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Old 11-24-2019, 09:48 AM   #33
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Long range shooting for me would be maybe 100 yards in the mountains of Western PA more likely 15 to 25 yards. We did in those days send a lot of ammo down range and used several different calibers. We had a lot of $$ tied up in reloading equipment but we enjoyed it and it did save some money. Remember back in the days of the DCM ammo was cheap. Here at the range in Florida it is 15 to 25 yards and more for keeping what's left of our skills up and just plain fun.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:05 AM   #34
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Well you are sorta right. It takes a little bit of skill and a lot of luck. With 1/4 minute rifle you would be off 2.75 inch at 2200 yards. The scope has 1/8 MOA adjustments so now you have 5.5 inches and not to forget the cross hairs will completely cover the prairie dog. He is a 4X 8 inch target. It takes a good rifle and a lot of luck. You just don’t go out one morning and decide to shoot a prairie dog at a mile and a quarter. But it fun trying and if you do you have bragging rights. How many of your buddies have done that or even a 1000 yards.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:07 PM   #35
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buy a rcbs rock chucker. best buy by a loong shot ( no pun intended).
but as others here said. cost for press dies and all the other stuff. then a very solid bench. there is a huge buy in cost.
but then you can tailor your loads to fit your guns.
buy a couple loading books. always start low and add to the charge to your likeings. but never play around in the over charge limits. a gun can go kaboom.
with the rock chucker, get a hand primer loader. and a best quality electronic scale, and load up one at a time.
sure cheap boxed ammo is lower in price. but they under charged loads, there ammo, is goes “pop” not “bang”.
there is a whole aspect to just reloading.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:11 PM   #36
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Smile Reloading

I just noticed our local sportsman warehouse is offering a free reloading seminar. Might check other sporting goods stores in your area and ask. In my garage I put together a bottom steel plate, 3 pipes for legs, a top plate, all welded together that I drilled holes in to mount the press, powder dispenser, etc. compact and very usable.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:18 PM   #37
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plenty of online help and used equipment
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:32 PM   #38
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Last2die: You have gotten a lot of good advice here. Back to your original question-sounds like you want to handload for high volume shooting in AR platforms and handguns? I load a ton of shotgun ammo (I shoot 28 and 410 almost exclusively and it makes economic sense), and a fair amount of rifle ammo. I know a lot of folks who compete in 3 gun and handgun events and they all have gone to Dillon equipment. They are progressive presses and you can really crank out the ammo. You have to look at what you save and see how long it would take you to recover the cost of the reloading equipment. As has been said here you can buy practice ammo pretty darn reasonably now. Check out Palmetto State Armory for deals, and check out Pew Pew Tactical for ammo buying tips as well. My $.02.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:50 PM   #39
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We started reloading when my son started wanting to compete along side us, and being as practice makes perfect. We made the decision to start reloading.
We have a Dillon 550. It’s quick and easy to set up with a c-clamp. You can buy die set for each size you shoot and have it pre set and in a case. This way you can reload what you need and not have to reset every time. We do check weight every 30 or so, just to make sure. And we have a good brass cleaner. We clean our brass after every range session so we can reload along the way. Good luck on your decision.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:59 PM   #40
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If this is your first time reloading start out simple. It's harder to screw up with a reloader that you do one step at a time rather than jumping into a progressive loader. There is plenty of time to graduate to the auto load down the road. Just remember KISS. Best advice is to read about the process, Hornaday, Lee, and Lawsen have reference books that you will use all the time. If you don't like to read then hit up you tube, there is some udefull info on there also.
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