Peeling decals on nose cap

[exav8tr]

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH. This is a letter I received from this gentleman. I realize he is in the business of selling graphics, but I do like the 5 year warranty if he installs them.........Most of what he says I have heard before. As usual I have no financial arrangements with him either.....


Phil
Thank you for the courtesy of your reply. Good questions. I will address the last question/comment first so as to set the context for my products: Cheap graphics from the factory are exactly that: CHEAP. Just try and get a statement from Keystone regarding whether or not the graphics are produced using high performance cast vinyl with a high performance cast over laminate. All of our graphics are produced using the above described materials, with a 6 - 8 year outdoor rating and a 5 year warranty against color fade and shrinkage. I also offer a 5 year warranty covering lifting and adhesion when I install the graphics. Keystone orders hundreds of sets of factory graphics for their Montana's during production runs, and therefore gets an appropriate price; I produce one off kits for scattered Montana owners who seek my services, one at a time.

Reproduction of factory graphics takes in the neighborhood of 2 weeks. Many factors come into play; our work load, the availability of your 5th wheel from which to copy from, and in stock materials to name the primary factors.

If you wish to clear coat your 5th wheel, the only clear coat process worth spending money on is an automotive grade clear coat process applied by a qualified and reputable body shop, of which there are a very few in the Phoenix metro area (that can handle RV's). Any sort of "protective" sprayed on product that purports to protect your RV is a sales gimmick. Simply put, the only clear coat that truly offers protection for the surface of your RV is automotive grade clear coat.

Regular washing and "waxing" of RV's is critical. I am not a fan of automotive waxes; rather I like protectants like Formula 303 or Protect All. These two products feature U/V inhibitors that specifically work to minimize the effects of exposure to sunlight, the main cause of exterior degradation. These protectants do not add gloss or shine to a rig, they simply protect it from elemental damage. They need to be used more frequently than a once a year waxing, but the effort will pay off dramatically.

I would like to see your 5th wheel before you leave for Verde Valley, perhaps on your departure day you would swing by our shop for photos, color charting and firm price quoting? Let me know if that will work with your schedule.

Thank you for referring my company to other Montana owners, my goal is quality, beautiful graphics for every single RV, one at a time.

Wishing you safe and enjoyable travels.

Steve Zacher
RV Stripes & Graphics, Inc.
"Life's Too Short to Drive Ugly !"
480 984 7939
steve@rvsg.com
www.dontdriveugly.com

[Parrothead]

This is strange that people other than those of us in the Southwest are having problems. According to the Keystone rep at the Tucson rally, the graphic problem is only in the dry southwest. We are flaking on the front, shrinking on the street side badly. He agreed it looks terrible. They are going to do something about it - what we don't know. Have not heard from them yet.
Happy trails........................

[ols1932]

I'm curious. Is the decal peeling dilemma more applicable to certain model years? The older units, like ours, don't seem to have that peeling problem. That leads me to only one conclusion and that is that the decal manufacturers are using a different type of adhesive than they did on the older units like ours. I don't believe we can lay the blame on Keystone, however I believe they could be applying some pressure on the decal manufacturers to upgrade their product. I'm sure they don't like the advertising that the curling decals present to the public.

Orv

[D and M On The Road]

I was told by Burlington Graphics that the 2004 Montanas had some trouble with graphics.

They also told me that the graphics have a street life of 5 to 7 years. Prolonged exposure to the sun will hasten that estimate. Waxing can help prolong the life of graphics.

Another tidbit is that if the graphics are applied to the rig in temperatures below 55 degrees, then the graphics won't adhere as well, which can cause early peeling. So that makes me wonder about if the graphics are applied at the correct temperature inside the factory and then the unit goes outside and sits? The graphics won't have had enough time to "bond" and will start the curling & peeling process early. It would be interesting to see the build dates of the rigs that have graphics problems before the 5 to 7 year street life of the graphics is up.

We noticed our graphics started fading/cracking in 2004 and tried to get some interest from the dealer and Keystone back then. Now we absolutely need to replace them, or just take them off and have a white Montana.

We'll certainly let folks know if asked about why our 5th wheel is white.


I think the moral of the story is.... as soon as you notice a problem... jump on it. Don't get frustrated and drop the issue like we did. Learn from what we are going through to replace the graphics. Plus, any cost will be out of our pocket now.

By the way, anyone have the "Team Montana" phone number at Keystone? I can't find it when I conduct a search of the forum.

Thanks!

[D and M On The Road]

Update:

I just got off the phone after calling the 866-425-4369 phone number and asking for "Team Montana".

I ended up with "Denise" again who is the head of Keystone Customer Service.

About 1 to 1-1/2 years ago the "teams" were reorganized and the individual teams were done away with. There is no more "Team Montana" for the consumer to ask for or deal with.

Parts are not sold directly thru Keystone anymore to the consumer.

Anyone who is wanting parts must go thru a dealer. This is what Keystone has been trying to move towards.

Folks who are under warranty.... we'll, you are a different story and one that I haven't scratched the surface of other than you are supposed to go thru a dealer also but I think that doesn't seem to hold true in all cases.

I am still after graphics and will try some other avenues. Will keep you updated.

[cdaniels]

I called Keystone today myself after seeing these Montana's with the same problem. The rep was really nice and said to take a picture and send it to teammontana.keystonerv.com, they will look at the picture and if they think it is bad enough to need replaced they will send a front decal to you as customer service since decals are not under warranty. They will only replace the front. I had issues with that since the decals are a problem for Montana's but she only said they are replacing the front as a customer service. I guess that is better than nothing, though it seems with this many complaints they should realize it is a infraction on thier part but that's all they are going to do. The person who got his replaced at the ralley was very lucky.

[D and M On The Road]

Thanks CDaniels.

I can't seem to get past the customer service department when I call Keystone.

That "Team Montana" email is probably for dealers, but I will email them and see what happens.

Now remember my Montana is a 2002 model and might not qualify for even this. Plus, they don't make the 2002 decals anymore and none are in stock. What I am after is an entire set of decals for the Montana...both sides, front & back. Otherwise it's gonna look pretty funky with different decals.

My front cap decal is the worst... but I also need all new on the passenger side and some on the street side.

Geez.... I hope once I can get this figured out, that the cost isn't so high that all this work trying to obtain decals is all for naught.

More on this continuing saga tomorrow or the next day. Tonight I am going to email the same pictures to that Keystone email address that I emailed to Burlington Graphics.........

[D and M On The Road]

Graphics Search Update:

I hope you are sitting down when you read this.

Just received a quote from a dealer for an entire set of graphics for a Montana. It does not include installation:

$800 to $900

Remember:

According to the manufacturer of the graphics... they only have a street life of 5 to 7 years. And that is only if you keep your coach from prolonged sun exposure and IF the graphics are installed on the coach at the proper temperature and able to "bond" or "cure" for a length of time at the proper temperature.

I am waiting upon a quote from another dealer.

[bigmurf]

Just get a decal made that says "Keystone graphics don't last" and put it on your rig and drive it around to a few shows and rallys.

[HamRad]

Margee,

Wow! That is way more than I would have guessed. And that does not include installation.

Paint thing may be looking better by the day!


Thanks again for keeping us updated.

Dennis

[D and M On The Road]

...LOL.... we are thinking of taking off all the decals except for the big cracked & peeling "Montana" on the front. That will sure look ugly. Of course, we could just not do anything and when people ask about our decals, we'll tell what we know.

The email address "teammontana@keystonerv.com" takes you to customer service. If your rig is not too old, they'll send you that front decal, but not us.

We are waiting on one more quote from a dealership.

[D and M On The Road]

Dennis.... time to go trade in our rigs and get new ones, eh? Wonder what we'd get for a trade?

They have that 2007 3585sa on a special from $65,xxx to $49,xxx at Folsom Lake RV in Sacramento.

[VanMan]

That's called "planned obsolesence". I'm fighting that right now - before or on this trip I've had to repair or replace the outside shower faucet, the inside shower faucet, the toilet, had to tighten a loose water line to the kitchen faucet, broke a shear pin in the tongue jack, and the DC water pump is not pumping (makes noise but no water). I lost the vinyl molding insert around the front side of both doors (went through a LOT of wind). Now I think I see a leak under the galley tank! grrrrr!!!

[exav8tr]

I visited with the gentleman that owns RVGraphics in Apache Junction yesterday. He is putting me a graphics package together for the truck. I asked about peeling graphics repair and he said "If you must use something to glue them back down then fingernail polish was about the best, however, it will yellow after time." He suggested cutting off a very thin portion of the graphic where it is peeling, in other words, just the peeling portion. He also stated that most factory graphics are only good for about three years, but also said if you use Protect All or better yet, Formula 303, you will extend the life of the graphics and overall finish of the RV, BUT, you must apply this every couple of months.......Once or twice a year will not cut it. He also said everytime you move to coat the front cap with one of these to keep bugs off and not have to scrub so hard to remove them. He has been in the graphics business for over 15 years and I see no reason to doubt him.....(No, he's not my brother either)....

[dsprik]

Got my front "Montana" graphic today. I will begin looking for a place to put it on when I get back up north for the summer.

[D and M On The Road]

Update: Just received a quote from another dealer (Folsom Lake RV in Sacramento, CA) for an entire set of graphics: $1000 and that does NOT include installation.

I am at work right now and can't type all that I'd like to. I'll do more of an update later tonight with what else I have learned today about graphics, especially the ones on Montanas. Interesting facts.......


EDIT: I've learned alot about our Montana graphics and graphics in general. I'll post some interesting stuff here tomorrow once I finish compiling the rest of the facts together. For now, real life (dishes & laundry) is interfering with my MOC life....

[old turbo]

Perhaps Keystone should get the nose of the 5vr made at a company the will put the graphics into the fiberglass with pigment instead of the old decal thing. I would like to see them offer some colors in the whole rig instead of the same cookie cutter system they have now. The Carriage Domani is a fine example of this type of inovation, a variety of outside colors and graphics colored into the glass.

[D and M On The Road]

Our graphics are in such bad shape that I started researching to find out more about graphics. I’m one of those people who want to know “why” and with the whole world at my fingertips (love the internet!!), I will research all night long sometimes to find the answers. I was going to wait until I researched some more before I posted it here but I’ve been busy at work and home. So the following is what I have so far:

Burlington Graphics is a 24 year old company that specializes in screen, flexographic and high resolution digital printing. They are considered one of the top graphic companies in the USA. They have been the only vendor (and still are) for all the graphics for the Montana line.

"Avery” ( the leading name in labels & adhesive paper) supplies Burlington Graphics with the adhesive vinyl graphic paper. It's a 2 mil cast paper and one of the best you can get. The thinner the better when it comes to the graphics industry. You don't want a thick edge on graphics. That just allows for water to collect & sit on the edge and that weakens the edging which allows for curling of the graphic. It also give the wind something to grab onto. As with anything else, whenever newer & better vinyls and adhesives are produced, Burlington will upgrade to the newer product. That is why some folks who get replacement graphics might notice a change in them.

Keystone is still a new company in the RV industry. Their older Montanas (like our 2002) are now at the end of the "street life" of their graphics, if they were properly cared for in the beginning. If our Montanas live in areas that get hot sun, or prolonged exposure to the sun, are stored outside without a cover, are high-pressured washed or aren’t waxed several times a year, then they will have started to show fading, cracking and peeling much sooner than the expected street life. Any of the above will shorten the street life of the graphics. If they have been properly cared for from the beginning, then they should last 5 to 7 years.

RV graphics don’t usually have a laminate covering. Remember when many years back, the automotive industry had problems with the “clear coat” on automobile paint fading and cracking. It happened mainly to vehicles in the west due to the hot sun exposure, but was seen on vehicles across the USA. That is what would happen to laminated graphics on RVs with prolonged sun. Consumers who go to the length to have custom graphics installed on their autos & trucks, usually maintain them, wash & wax their vehicles far more than their RVs so laminated graphics fare rather well on those vehicles and the graphics will usually last their estimated street life. We had bought new a 1976 Datsun that was afflicted with the “clear coat” problem and we definitely wouldn’t want to see it on our RV.

It’s impossible to keep our RVs out of the sun while traveling. But what we can do is try to get shaded campsites, store the RV under shelter or get a cover for it, hand wash and wax it more often. Washing and waxing is critical as pointed out by another MOC member on this thread. We should be doing it every couple of months, at least. Our cars and trucks don’t go too long in between maintenance, neither should our RVs.

I didn't mean for this to turn into a lecture , nor to offend anyone but this certainly showed ME that we, the consumer, have a lot more responsibilities to maintaining those graphics than I ever thought. But this still doesn't explain why some graphics start peeling within a year or so of being new. Unless, they can start peeling and cracking within that time from lack of washing and waxing? (Just thinking out loud here, please don't take offense)

I know some folks on here swear by “Protect All” and “Formula 303” products. I am going to research and find out from Burlington or Avery what products they recommend for the care and maintenance of the decals.

Just a tidbit: Locations of folks who mentioned on this thread problems with their graphics: 3/California; 1/Colorado; 2/Georgia; 2/Maryland; 2/Michigan; 1/ Texas; 2/Ontario, Canada.


Did anyone get any paperwork on the care and maintenance of the graphics when they bought their Montana? We didn’t, so I am going to suggest that Burlington Graphics make up a “care & maintenance” sheet or booklet for the graphics and ask Keystone to add in the owner’s handbook. I’d like to see upfront what I should be doing to maintain something and not after I start having problems with it.


Margee.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

A care sheet?? I don't think we got one, but I like the idea! YES MAM!!

[dsprik]

I am one one of the "Michigan", Doug. However, we have snowbirded the last two winters with it, meaning it has been in the hot sun ever since we got it out of the factory July 2006. We have not ever stored it for the winter, which may have made a difference. This may be why, after 16 months, we have rather severe peeling on our "Montana" on our nose. Strange thing is that no other graphics - on the nose or elsewhere, are having this problem. ONLY the "Montana" one. Almost like two different materials/vendors?