KEYSTONE STIKES AGAIN

[Nelsen55]

My wife and I own a 2011 Montana, model 3585SA. We purchased the camper new from Adventure RV, Wichita, KS. in December 2011. While gathering model and serial numbers of the air conditioning units to register the warranty, I noted 2 holes in the plywood sub-roof that had had the rubber membrane stretched over them. The holes has sharp edges and were next to vent tubes. Factory OOPS is my guess. I notified the dealer and Keystone agreed to pay to replace/repair the roof. Adventure RV performed the repairs and delivered the RV.

This spring while I was washing and putting treatment on the roof, I noticed that the flashing and the nails used to fasten flashing along the edges of the roof were coming loose and starting to push up on the rubber membrane. During the time that we have owned the camper, the dealer we purchased the camper from had gone out of business. I contacted another dealership in the Wichita area that sells Keystone products for assistance. I have also contacted Keystone myself and describe the situation.

I asked Keystone to assist in covering the cost of having the membrane pulled back far enough to attach the flashing with screws and covered with a tape to prevent chaffing of the membrane.

Once again, Keystone fails their customer. Keystone has taken the stance that our RV is out of warranty, but if the nails poke holes in the membrane, Keystone may reconsider my request for assistance on a case by case basis.

This Montana is our second new Keystone product, trust me, THERE WILL NOT BE A THIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phil P]

Hi

In my case there will not be a second.

Phil P

[DarMar]

First of all I am sorry for your situation. That said perhaps a bit more of the blame should be put on Adventure RV for not fixing the problem in the first go around which Keystone paid for in good faith. I am not sure we can hold Keystone accountable for every rv dealer that performs sub standard work. JMHO.

P.S. We are just days away from doing the PDI on our 4th Montana. We feel we have been treated fairly over the years by BOTH our dealer AND Keystone.

[DQDick]

I would contact Keystone again and ask to speak to a supervisor.

[Bigboomer]

quote:Originally posted by DarMar

First of all I am sorry for your situation. That said perhaps a bit more of the blame should be put on Adventure RV for not fixing the problem in the first go around which Keystone paid for in good faith. I am not sure we can hold Keystone accountable for every rv dealer that performs sub standard work. JMHO.

P.S. We are just days away from doing the PDI on our 4th Montana. We feel we have been treated fairly over the years by BOTH our dealer AND Keystone.

I have to agree DarMar....We have been very blessed with great dealers thru the years.....The one we just bought our new 3610RL already seems to be above and beyond most....
Please keep us updated on your PDI....we have been told our new rig just came off the line last week and can expect to see it at the dealer in the next week or two....
Good luck with the PDI!

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by DarMar

First of all I am sorry for your situation. That said perhaps a bit more of the blame should be put on Adventure RV for not fixing the problem in the first go around which Keystone paid for in good faith.

Hi

I differ from this opinion. Keystone doesn’t audit their dealers and they don’t cross reference warranty problems with their RV’s or the repeated problems with a dealer. Keystone accepts no responsibility for the condition of or the competency of their dealer’s service department but still requires you to use the selling dealer. This information came from the of head customer service at Keystone.

Keystones only interest in a dealer is their sales record not their service record. My selling dealer did not have a single RV trained technician on staff except for the service manager. When I pointed this out to the head of customer service at Keystone he showed no interest in this fact. When I provide several VIN numbers of trailers some of which Keystone had to transport back to the factory for repair I was told “we don’t cross reference those things”.

Maybe you now understand why I will not ever purchase another Thor product.

Phil P

[DarMar]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P

Hi

I differ from this opinion. Keystone doesn’t audit their dealers and they don’t cross reference warranty problems with their RV’s or the repeated problems with a dealer. Keystone accepts no responsibility for the condition of or the competency of their dealer’s service department but still requires you to use the selling dealer. This information came from the of head customer service at Keystone.

Keystones only interest in a dealer is their sales record not their service record. My selling dealer did not have a single RV trained technician on staff except for the service manager. When I pointed this out to the head of customer service at Keystone he showed no interest in this fact. When I provide several VIN numbers of trailers some of which Keystone had to transport back to the factory for repair I was told “we don’t cross reference those things”.

Maybe you now understand why I will not ever purchase another Thor product.

Phil P

Phil, that's the nice thing about this forum we can agree to disagree and still move on. I understand what you are saying but unfortunately that is how the rv industry works for the most part.

We were in the furniture, appliance and home entertainment industry for what seemed like a lifetime. All the extremely large suppliers worked with the dealers in exactly the same way. It always seemed the #1 priority was always sales!!! We competed with super large stores that were all about selling and pretty much refused to bear the cost of having to actually service the product.

Until the rv industry moves to the franchise model of the automobile industry we have got what we got and if anyone thinks the dealers under that system are serving the after sales needs of every customer think again. There are good and bad dealers in both industries and hopefully the bad ones like Adventure Rv will go out of business sooner rather than later.

[DQDick]

Sent you a PM and an email with the email of a manager at Keystone who needs some info to try and help.

[1retired06]

We have found in general dealership responsibility for support after the rig is off the lot is spotty. Having bought our first trailer in 1971, we have also found our Montana Fivers to be good quality products, with minimal problems, particularly in comparison with other brands.

[DQDick]

"I differ from this opinion. Keystone doesn’t audit their dealers and they don’t cross reference warranty problems with their RV’s or the repeated problems with a dealer. Keystone accepts no responsibility for the condition of or the competency of their dealer’s service department but still requires you to use the selling dealer. This information came from the of head customer service at Keystone."

Phil, I don't doubt this was your experience but it certainly wasn't ours. We had three serious warranty problems and a minor one on our rig. Keystone authorized a non-dealer to fix one and paid in total, had another serious and the minor one fixed by dealers two and three states away from where we bought and fixed the most major item at the Keystone Customer Service Center. Based on my experience I wouldn't buy from another company.

[rohrmann]

Another thing about Keystone, at least they will be around quite a while, not like some of the small builders that have folded over the years. Providing you find a repair shop to make repairs, at least Keystone has a reputation to protect, and given a chance, they usually take care of the problem. Just like with auto builders, there will always be a problem that just won't go away, no matter who tries to make the repair. Fortunately, with the volume of trailers and RVs built, if they all had split tanks, burnt electrical, broken frames, etc, who would want to purchase an RV? Yes, we've had a few problems, but they were repaired, and in our case, not by the selling dealer, as we were about 1,000 miles away.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by DarMar

I understand what you are saying but unfortunately that is how the rv industry works for the most part
[/quote]

It is changing.

There are now three manufacturers that give a 2 year cap to cap warranty and 5 years on structure.

Phil P

[Nelsen55]

First, Thank You DQDICK for putting our situation in front of a Keystone Manager.

We agree that Adventure RV is to blame for the wrong fasteners being used to secure the flashing. We also feel that Keystone is to blame for cutting the holes in the wrong place and covering them with membrane. If Keystone hadn't cut the holes in the wrong place, we would still have the factory roof installed on our camper.

[JandC]

quote:Originally posted by rohrmann

Another thing about Keystone, at least they will be around quite a while, not like some of the small builders that have folded over the years. Providing you find a repair shop to make repairs, at least Keystone has a reputation to protect, and given a chance, they usually take care of the problem. Just like with auto builders, there will always be a problem that just won't go away, no matter who tries to make the repair. Fortunately, with the volume of trailers and RVs built, if they all had split tanks, burnt electrical, broken frames, etc, who would want to purchase an RV? Yes, we've had a few problems, but they were repaired, and in our case, not by the selling dealer, as we were about 1,000 miles away.

I am just hoping that we don't have a black tank that splits, a roof that is defective, or any cracked frame issues on our 2014. But rohrmann is right when he says Keystone has been around for awhile. That was the first thing we researched prior to buying our first Montana, which was almost 5 years old. I didn't want to buy from a start up RV manufacturer, I wanted one that had been around with a decent track record. Even a one year warranty isn't any good if they are out of business within that year.

[richfaa]

This is probably a good place to post this. This list is on record under our VIN at the service center. Keystone has been made aware on each and every one of these issues. The list goes with us to our dealer May 5th for some major repairs.


2013 3402 Big Sky delivery date June 2013
1. Black , gray, galley tank indicators not accurate. Black tank failed two week after we got the camper.
2. Latch on pantry door not properly installed. Door would not close
3. Border alongside the stove peeled off the first time we boiled water.
4. Latches on most of the drawers would not keep the drawers closed in transit. The ones in the PC desk were not properly installed.
5. Satellite and cable inputs reversed in the convenience center.
6. Microwave /convection oven would not come up close to set heat.
7. Some brackets holding down the curtains are pulling out of the wall.
8. Struts on the compartment doors are pulling out of the door. They are screwed into basically nothing.
9. Propane regulator reads erratic sometimes all red, sometimes all green, sometimes half red. Half green.
10. Valve stem in one tire worked loose from rim causing loss of tire pressure. Had to change tire on the road another has a slow leak.
11. Lug nuts are rusting, all of them.
12. Various screws along fender wells are rusting a couple were missing.
13. Screw on bracket on fender well keeping fender from flapping completely missed its mark causing issue # 12
14. Torque on U bolts on suspension were all under 40LBS..
15. No heat in John room or in front compartment.
16. John foot pedal came off, retaining ring came off flooding the camper
17.Left rear landing gear will not fully retract
Items 1,2,4,5,6,7 were corrected at the service center at the 2012 rally.
Item 3 we peeled it off and trashed it, bad idea to have it there.
Item 9. Propane regulator still does that but it works. Service center would not replace since it works. Will just wait till it fails and replace at our own expense.
Item 10.Road service call replaced the tire with the spare .Goodyear in Florida replaced the stem at no charge to us but suggested we replace all the low quality rims as they are prone to failure.he said he could not carry that quality rim.
Item 11 as of May 8th all lug nuts are rusting. To replace with Mc Gard quality lug nuts #64805 will cost me 228.00 for all the lug nuts.
Item 12. We are replacing with quality screws that will not rust.
Item 14.Torqued to specs recommended by Dexter at the 2012 rally

Item 15. The heat duct to the John room was never connected .We connected it.
Item 16 was a vendor issue corrected by them under warranty. The pedal was not installed properly.
Item 17.Still will not retract is 4 to 6 inches short of going up all the way.no sign of fluid leak, resorvoir correctly filled.
Item 17 is corrected. Added some fluid to the reservoir although it did not indicate low..
Now back to Item 8. On may 5th when we opened the compartment door the hinge plate tore completely away from the door. The door fell down of course missing my noggin and also tore the lower right strut off the hinge. Although you folks claim to have not heard of the issue apparently Keystone knew about it 2 years ago. We did the fix .Can’t take it to a dealer as there is no Keystone fix. Hope there is a fix by the fall rally as the compartment door is ruined.
18.Noted bubbles on the side of the roof. took pictures sent to Robyne at service center.
19. Pendant light over counter. The socket fell apart on one while attempting to change out a bulb.the glass on the othet one fell out while in tr avel and broke into a 100 shards .Combined parts of the two and made one good one. Reported to service center.
20 .Now note a large bubble on the left side compartment door.
21. Fridge doors leak . Fridge stopped cooling. Cooling unit replaced by Norcold in Florida under warranty
22.Rear screen window will not open or close properly.
Additions
23. Another valve stem failed. Tire pressure monitor caught the decrease in Psi and Road service changed the tire.
24. November 2013 two gray tanks, galley and shower/bath failed while stationary here in Florida at our winter residence.
25. Wall panel alongside the stove and the panel in the closet by the Ardmore pulled away from the wall on the 1,200 mile trip to our Florida residence. Ardmore shelves collapsed . October 2012
26. Pendant light replaced at the fall rally by keystone customer service.
27.Had our 15 mins with the service tech at the fall rally and he took note of the Roof bubbles, Compartment door delamination and compartment door hinges pulling out .No action taken.
28 Facing panel over the kitchen slide fell off the wall. April 2104

29. lost one phase of power in Florida. Wires in the 50 amp plug had pulled loose. Repaired and replaced with a 90 degree plug to relieve stress. November 2103
30. Most of brads on the bottom dining room chairs have pulled loose.
31. Severe chipping on the front panel paint. We have tried the rock tamer system with no success. IMO it was a bad idea to paint the front panel but it is done. Suggestions on how to solve the problem are appreciated.
32. The unit is 22 months

[richfaa]

Is my 3402 the only unit that has suffered these problems over that period of time?? Has no one had these problems???? We are not weekend campers. We spend 6 months in Florida living in this thing and at least another 2 or 3 months on the road in the summer time. I do report every issue no matter how small to Keystone. I think they want to know and should know. How can they correct a issue if we do not tell them there is a issue.

Again If I thought there was a better product in the price range I would have it. This is not Montana bashing...just the facts.

[Irlpguy]

I would like to comment on the OP and his problem and how it has been handled and how it might be handled going forward.

Firstly the unit should never have left the factory with holes in the roof that were not needed for installing vents or whatever. The worker on the line who drilled the holes had the opportunity to repair them before completing his work, he did not do that. The unit then went on to the stage where the roofing was being installed and again another worker did not bring this to a supervisors attention and have it dealt with, he carried on to keep the unit moving down the line. That is a sad testament to the workers themselves and the quality control that seems to be non existent on the assembly line.

Because of the above, Keystone owns the majority of the fault for what events took place after the unit was sold. Of course they have no control over the quality of the work performed on the flashing by someone else, however we need to keep in mind that work would never have been needed were it not for their goof in the first place. Therefore they should step up and have fixed at their cost whatever it takes to make the roof acceptable.

My list of issues with my Montana includes many of the items listed by Richfa and some he has not listed. Again let us not forget that when you have a problem with an appliance or jobber supplied item which carry their own warranties, Keystone does not replace them at their cost, that cost and replacement is born by the supplier, Keystone facilitates that warranty but they are not out of pocket for a bad furnace for instance. When the one year warranty period provided by Keystone is over you are pretty much on your own. Ask me how I know that.

I am able to fix many if not all of the "small" irritating problems myself, that way I don't have to call Keystone and go through that hassle, nor the hassle of dealing with most service departments that are way more interested in getting the newly sold units out the door than fixing something for someone they have already gotten their money out of.

I have had great customer support from Dexter with my axle issue, as well the supplier of the microwave who stepped up and authorized the repair of my microwave when Keystone had washed their hands of me, in spite of the fact the microwave warranty was over. They are to be commended.

I have said this before on this forum but it bears repeating in my opinion.

You should not have to attend a "rally" and glad hand Keystone representatives and be on a first name basis with any of them to receive the same support and commitment as any other purchaser of a Keystone product, that is just plain wrong.

Those that have attended rally's over the years and gotten to know who to contact to get some action, for the most part appear to be willing to share that knowledge with other MOC members, however there are those that are not offered that information for whatever reason. As I said above it is wrong for Keystone to conduct their business that way, everyone should be treated equally, but guess what that might cost them some additional money.

At my age I am unlikely to be in the market for another 5th wheel, if I were, I would downsize and it would not be a Keystone product. For now I enjoy my Montana until the next major issue comes along, and I don't fret the petty repair/adjustment stuff.

You can call my comments Keystone bashing or not, I do not care, they simply are not doing all they could to live up to their name and reputation.

[Chip]

I have had the staples lifting up under the roof membrane as well. Three were taken care of under the one year warranty, but I had to fight to get that. Now I have two more working their way up. Camper is out of warrantee now so their will be no help from Keystone on this one. I will repair it myself when I have time, unless I step on it and it "compromises the roof".

[richfaa]

I do agree about the one year warranty being up after one year. That is pretty much the same on any warranty for any product. However reporting a problem to Keystone during the one year warranty and having it on record before the warranty is up will help. We reported roof bubbles on our 06 3400 and some on this 13 3402.They are on record under our VIN. I do not feel I got any special treatment because I am a MOC member or attend the rallies but understanding the organization and who to call helped a lot. Many Rv manufacturers have rallies and the vendors are there. It is good PR for the companies and yes it is a advantage for the folks who can attend. We make it a point to know every keystone/Montana rep and we visit the service center to meet all the service reps. No it should not make a difference in customer service and I am not sure that it does. It is a advantage to understand how the company operates and to understand the folks who run it.

The tour of the assembly line, any manufacturers assembly line is eye opening. The line does not stop or slow because a worker makes a mistake. The assembly line methods are primitive with little quality control at each station. I nearly fell over when I asked ...how do the workers at this station know they performed all their task and performed them correctly and the answer was.... because they do it every day. Now that is great quality control,,,,NOT.

We know that Montana uses the MOC and no doubt this form and a test bed for the product. I feel it is our responsibility to inform them of every problem. yes we fix many ourselves but we should still report them and how we fixed them. The Keystone folks ask for this input and have a session at the fall rally for this input but it is only from a small number of Montana owners.

Call the service center and ask them who your regional rep is and his E mail address. When you have a problem or repair a problem drop him or her a E mail.
Give your VIN and your problem and fix. We all need to do that.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by rohrmann

Another thing about Keystone, at least they will be around quite a while,

Before you get to brave with that statement you may want to read the history of the following two companies.

Clark Equipment Company

Houdaille Industries

Then after that read the history of Thro Industries.

Phil P