Hitch Pin Welds

[Montana_2785]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Eric, great post on the hitch pin issue.I have copied the post and will take it to the factory with us Thursday so We can see exactly where the wield are.

Rich, FWIW now that I understand the "frame" issue, I would suggest that the next greatest construction issue is how the fresh water tank is mounted. It seems to be the next weakest part of a Montana that has a possibility of failure. We have had 2 or 3 of our 200 active members with significant fresh water tank issues. That is a high enough percentage for me to proactively take a look at mine and I'd want to know how the new ones are being built if I was in the market.

The fact that it appears that some/all of them are allowed to "float" in their brackets raises a really big red flag to me

My 2 cents.

Eric

[richfaa]

Eric..agreed.I note that on my 10 year old TT the black and gray tanks are secured by Angle iron..The fresh tank is inside the TT under the sofa..Also from my experience the posting members on this forum make up a good Representative sample of Montana owners. It does not take a large number to be representative..The TV nielsen rating system uses about 13,000 Tv viewers out of about 100 million to rate Tv and Billions of $ are spent on what they determine. The hitch pin and water tank issues were top of my list for the factory tour..Your analysis of the hitch pin issue eased my mind a lot.

[Montana_2785]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Eric..agreed.I note that on my 10 year old TT the black and gray tanks are secured by Angle iron..The fresh tank is inside the TT under the sofa..

On our old TT, the fresh water tank was under the bed. It was held in place by strips of wood screwed into the floor next to the tank to keep it from sliding. However, that didn't keep it from JUMPING on bad bumps. I wound up strapping that puppy into place.

quote:[...]Your analysis of the hitch pin issue eased my mind a lot.

I'm also feeling a lot better about it knowing that I really understand what it is. Especially since, forewarned, I think I was able to stop using mine before it got as bad as others have.

Eric

[8.1al]

Boy is this topic getting long. I have some issues with my "2004" model 3575 that have been bothering me and maybe someone can help. When traveling I seemed to be seeing a lot of flex between the pin box and the body and then I noticed that the bedroom slide seemed to be cocked in the opening. I clamped a rod to the pin box that extended up to the cap. With the trailer unhitched I made a mark on the cap and then set it down on the truck. The pinbox flexed up almost an inch. At the same time I marked where the slide meets the body at the upper left corner of the slide. When I put the trailer on the truck the slide cocks to the right at the top 3/4 of an inch. After traveling all day I have seen it moved more that that.
I contacted the factory to try and find out if what I was seeing was anything to be concerned with and all they would say was "take it to a dealer". I did this and the dealer looked everything over and said there was nothing wrong but I'm still concerned. What do you think?

[Montana_2785]

quote:Originally posted by 8.1al

[...] I did this and the dealer looked everything over and said there was nothing wrong but I'm still concerned. What do you think?

I think that there is normally a crack in the small amount of outside body panel under the bed slide. The entire overhang area DOES flex and I think that a crack there is unavoidable. My own rig has some moulding in that crack to keep it sealed.

Knowing that there HAS TO BE some amount of flex in the overhang is what makes it difficult for us to see problems early. It WILL creak and moan when the load goes on & off. Things WILL shift a little. The pinbox WILL move as it takes the load. As an example, just sit in on the bed and let someone walk through the lower part of your unit. There is enough flex and bounce in that 10 inch I beam that you will feel it easily.

Steel isn't the absolutely rigid material some people think it is. In fact, if your steel isn't springy enough, it will be too brittle and can break instead of bend...

Very likely, your dealer is correct and you have nothing to worry about. Unless you see significant shifts in the interior (like in my first picture) I wouldn't worry.

If you want to really be kind to your frame, then consider investing in a suspension style pin box (like the TrailAir or MorRide). I got lucky and found a used TrailAir for less than half price

The danger of a thread like this is that some people may get overly excited when they don't need to be. It is for that reason (so I am told) that Ford (as one of their better ideas ) decided to put an idiot light on a stick for the oil pressure gage. If you watch it, it will climb to some point when you start the engine and then NEVER MOVE REGARDLESS OF ENGINE RPM! That is a lie. The oil pressure will vary a great deal depending on engine RPM. The story is that too many little old ladies badgered the repair shops & customer service people because "...the gage moved..."

OTOH, if you want to be ABSOLUTELY SURE AND POSITIVELY IDENTIFY you have no broken welds, the only way to check it is to remove the bottom cover under the overhang and hold the rig up by the kinpin and take a look.

My weld breaks are on the curb side. I have no idea what the symptoms would be if broken on the street side and I've not checked how my bed slide shifts in place when hitched. It will be a while before I get mine fixed and back in my hot little hands to check this out for you..... Also, I have the older overhang frame so it may not be an apples to apples comparison.

If you still have a concern, are you able to take pictures and post them here? If you can then you can show us your problem area's and the measurements you have taken. Then we can likely find a volunteer or two to take their own measurements and we can validate that your rig seems to be behaving "normally" or not. I'd be happy to do so once I get our own rig back. Might not be a bad idea anyway since this is such a popular thread The problem will be the differences in models, old vs new overhang frame structure, pin weight and the differences in pinboxes. For instance, I have a long style TrailAir pinbox. That will flex the kingpin itself upward more than the shorter original pinbox I removed since there is a longer moment arm from the actual kingpin to the mounting point under the frame.

Eric

[sreigle]

Eric, the Ford water temperature gauge works the same way. But, in both gauges, if the value gets above or below some predetermined "normal" range the gauge does move in the appropriate direction. It just doesn't move when the value measured is within that "normal" range. I also do not agree with this approach. I'd prefer to see trouble coming a bit sooner.

[HamRad]

Eric Roellig,
Thanks for a very good clarification of this particular problem. What you described is exactly what happened with our rig. Don't know what the fix was or even what actually broke. I assume it was the same as you described. The RV place fixed it for us and we've taken one trip with it since the fix and all appears normal. We've had NO problem with the actual king pin or anything near that area.

The gauge thing drives me nuts and I am going to install a set of gauges that will show the "real world" info. This may scare me more than the "computer controlled" stuff but I don't think so. I prefer to know what is really going on. That way I can adjust things as needed.

HamRad

[sreigle]

Dennis, I assume you'll go with pillar pod gauges. The pods come in black but I asked about matching the dash color and they did that for me for an additional ten bucks. On the prior truck I left it black (tan interior) and regretted that decision.

[Montana_2785]

Keystone stepped up to the plate again!!!

Our problems are "THE" problem and they will cover us. Parts are on order.

Eric

[lightningjack11]

ERIC,

Want to thank you for sharing this information in text and pictures. This problem has been in a lot of the posting and no one has explained it better than you. I am very relieved that it is not an actual "frame" problem. This winter I would like to drop my cover and inspect mine and now I know specifically what to look for. For the first time I understand the problem.

Thank you very much

Tom

[Montana_2785]

Random update. Still waiting on parts from Keystone.....

Eric

[sreigle]

quote:Originally posted by 8.1al

Boy is this topic getting long. I have some issues with my "2004" model 3575 that have been bothering me and maybe someone can help. When traveling I seemed to be seeing a lot of flex between the pin box and the body and then I noticed that the bedroom slide seemed to be cocked in the opening. I clamped a rod to the pin box that extended up to the cap. With the trailer unhitched I made a mark on the cap and then set it down on the truck. The pinbox flexed up almost an inch. At the same time I marked where the slide meets the body at the upper left corner of the slide. When I put the trailer on the truck the slide cocks to the right at the top 3/4 of an inch. After traveling all day I have seen it moved more that that.
I contacted the factory to try and find out if what I was seeing was anything to be concerned with and all they would say was "take it to a dealer". I did this and the dealer looked everything over and said there was nothing wrong but I'm still concerned. What do you think?

Charlie, if your dealer thinks nothing is wrong I'd suggest you call Keystone and tell them your findings. Let them know your dealer's response. They may suggest a different dealer or maybe call your dealer to tell them what to check for. Just a thought.

[8.1al]

Eric & Steve,
Thanks for your input. I don't think there is anything terribly wrong, at least not at this time. I can't see anything strange either inside or out other than the slide cocking in the opening. I'll just keep an eye on things and see what happens.
Once again, thanks

Charlie

[Montana_2785]

So, what is the magic to get Keystone to ship parts?

Yesterday, Collier RV tells me that someone at Keystone (Montana) promised to personally make sure my parts shipped. They were supposed to be at the shop almost a week ago.

Still no joy.

The service writer even suggested that I call Keystone directly myself, and I will....first thing in the morning!

I'm greatful that Keystone is picking up the tab, but that doesn't help if they don't send the &$#&%^ parts I gotta get the Monty to another shop in time for that shop to do warranty work (and be able to order parts) on the brake job they did before our July 4th trip. And THAT needs to be done before our Labor day trip.....

If Keystone would actually ship the parts tonight, it can still all work out but we are starting to cut things kinda close.

Eric

[sreigle]

Eric, you might ask Keystone whether the parts are shipped from their warehouse or if they're ordered from the original parts mfr and drop shipped to your dealer.

[Lije Baley]

I'm a little late to this party, but has Keystone addressed the problem at the factory with reinforced welds in the overhang area?
If so, does anyone know when the stronger welding began? Our 2955 was built in late April '05. I'm wondering whether it's also at risk of having broken welds.

[Montana_2785]

quote:Originally posted by sreigle

Eric, you might ask Keystone whether the parts are shipped from their warehouse or if they're ordered from the original parts mfr and drop shipped to your dealer.

I finally pried out of customer service that my parts have been ordered from a vendor that has a policy of delivering parts within 10 business days. 10 B days is the 19th. So by the time Collier would get the parts and have it be available for pickup, I don't think I'll have time to have the brakes looked at

Eric

[Montana_4028]

Well, we're finally back from our stay to get our 3295 2005 Big Sky repaired at the dealer - Alpine Recreation in Morgan Hill, CA. We ended up having to stay 7 days instead of the original 4 days they told us. They replaced all four tires, rims and the axles. They found two cracks in the frame near the hitch pin and also found cracks in and around the hitch pin. All have been welded and reinforced with 3/l6th of and inch gussets. They replaced the linoleum where the carpet catching in the slide had torn it up and they put in a block to keep the kitchen slide level and eliminate the clunk each time it went out. They also fixed the leak underneath the shower. They had forgotten to order the kitchen blind and the shore cord (ours is frayed out), but said that they would have those in in about 7 to 10 days. Then we get to drive the 40 miles back up to get those! At the price of diesel these days, it's not making us too happy. We don't really feel that the repairs are sufficient (3/16th of an inch of gusset only butt welded), but guess we have to give it a chance. Wish all of the rest of you good luck!

[Montana_2785]

Revised update:

1) Parts are in

2) The repair does involve removing the front nose cap. That is done so that wood can be installed inside the aluminum framing inside the walls. Pete (service manager) thinks this may be to allow extra screws something to bite into...

3) It does involve upgrading both sides of the overhang.

4) Pete invited me to come up and he will give me a guided tour of the repair once the nose cap is off. I'll be up there Wed. morning (with camera in hand ).

5) There is some hope that it will be ready by the end of this week.

It would be helpful if Keystone would give a more realistic estimate of when parts will need to be ordered from one of their sub-contractors and a realistic estimate of availability. Both myself and Collier RV kept getting told that the parts will ship "...tomorrow." and they never did. Also, the parts were NOT shipped overnight like we had been told. The parts actually shipped on the 11th. When I had checked on the 12th, I was told that the parts had NOT shipped yet.

For the sake of Collier RV, our Monty has been taking up one of their shop bays for about 2 weeks now. It is agonizing for us (owners) to be hanging on for word of when things will happen, but it is downright disrespectful of Keystone towards their dealers to treat them like this. If they had known it was going to be this long, they could at least have given Collier the chance to decide if it would be worth it to them to put mine back together so they could use the shop space while they wait. That is potentially quite a lot of lost revenue that could have been generated in that period of time.

I whole heartedly give Collier RV a big thumbs up. As they know things, they have made quite an effort to keep me up-to-date and informed of what is happening. Of course, I've kept myself in the loop as well, but the point is that they are not pushing me away or covering things up... This is definitely worth something in my NSHO.

Eric

[sreigle]

Ammyanne, is 3/16 the thickness? If so, that's pretty stout. I've not heard of anyone having any further problem after this fix. Ours was fixed in late May of this year. We've towed it about 3100 miles since then and I see no sign of any further problem. Hopefully yours will prove as strong.

Eric, one of the techs at the Keystone Service Center told me part of the problem (maybe all of it as far as I know) was that there was no wood in the hollow overhang frame for the screws to bite into and hold onto. He also said the newer ones have that wood but I have not tried to confirm that.