Actual Weighing of a 3400

[steves]

I attended the ‘The Rally’ this year in Daytona, Florida.
One of the seminars I attended was conducted by RVSEF (Recreational Vehicle Safety Education Foundation)which focused on the RV coaches/vehicle, weights compared to manufactures, axle and tire loads. I subsequently signed up to have my truck and Montana 5th wheel weighed.

2006 F350 Crew Cab, 8’ bed, 4X4. King Ranch.
Montana 2005 3400RL

Weight Analysis in Pounds (#)

Truck Axels without Trailer Vehicle GAVR load ratings
Left Right Total
Front 2,550 2,400 4,950 6,000
Rear 1,750 1,750 3,500 7,000
Total truck 8,450

Truck Axels with Trailer Attached
left Right Total
Front 2,575 2,450 5,025 6,000 (OK within rating)
Rear 3,000 3,350 6,350 7,000 (OK within rating)
Total Truck with Trailer 11,375
Pin weight 2,925 (11,375 – 8,450)
(dry weight is published @ 1,790)

Trailer Axel weight – (full water tanks )
Left Right Total
Front 2,900 2,700 5,600 6,000 (OK within rating)
Rear 3,100 2,650 5,750 6,000 (OK within rating)
Total weight on axels 11,350

Total 5th Wheel weight
Pin weight 2,925
Axel weights 11,350
Total trailer 14,275 Trailer GVWR 13,790** (485# over rating)
(Removing 68 gallons of
water at 8.33/gallon = 546 #. Would bring the
weight down to 13,731
and be under the GVWR)

Truck tires Continental Rated at 3,640 # at 80 PSI
Left Right
Front 2,575 2,450 OK
Rear 3,000 3,350 OK

Trailer tires Tacoma Rated at 3,042 # at 80 PSI
Left Right
Front 2,900 2,700 OK
Rear 3,100 2,650 ** Left tire is over by 58#

Fresh water tank on the 3400 is
located in the left rear and was
1/3 full. Removing the water
would bring the trailer within the
tire rating.

Overall the weight is pretty balanced. Running with full water
tanks and a fully stocked coach for an extended stay in Florida,
I am exceeding the trailers GVWR. This is a manageable situation
as I can reduce my weight in this area.

Upgrading the tires on the Montana would totally eliminate the tire
overage but the total GVWR of the Montana is only fixable by
reducing the overall weight. I normally don’t carry full tanks of
water so for me this also becomes a non-issue as I seldom dry camp.

The lower weight rating on the Tacoma tires compared to the
weight ratings on my trucks Continental tires tells me to upgrade the
5th wheel tires. I was unaware that ‘E’ rated tire had different
weight ratings. But, again, the weight on the left rear wheel is a
manageable condition that is directly attributable to the amount of
water being carried.

My coach was fully loaded with generator, tools, chairs, tables, etc.
for an extended stay in Florida and the added weight to the pin was
pin 1,135#. I would assume that you could add that amount to your
published pin weight to get your estimated actual pin weight in a
maximum load condition.

I hope you find this analysis helpful

[steves]

I'm sorry the formatting of my note did not work but I think you can get the actual numbers as is. Any question let me know.

Regards,

Steve

[richfaa]

Ok ..after reading the weight of your truck we ran ours down to the scales and weighed it at a landscaping company down the road.It is free, run it on and read the scale.

05-F350, Lariat, CC,LB , Dually, V-10. Draw tite 16K hitch, Bedsaver, full tank of fuel..
"The Truck Total" 7350lbs.
The truck has the 12,600GVWR package..tow boss 16,100lbs fifth wheel tow cap and a 23,500GCWR so we are not real concerned about over loading. We will weigh the EMPTY 3400 when we get it home from the dealer

[Wrenchtraveller]

Steve it sounds like your truck is a SRW and probably 11400 GVWR so you are still legal there as well. Here in BC, they go by the GVWR.
However, if I do the math right your combined weigh is 25625, quite a bit over your 23000 GCWR.

The crap Missions that came on my 06 Montana actually have a 3520 lb rating at 80 PSI, almost 500 pounds more than your Tacomas.

One thing your post shows , and that is the fact that older 1 tons with a 9900 GVWR would be overloaded with most Montanas and the 3/4 tons are very overloaded.

[firetrucker]

Steve, when you say full water tanks, do you mean fresh and hot water tanks?

After you give the summary for the trailer tire weights, you say the fresh water tank is only 1/3 full, though. Which readings did that apply to?

Were all your waste tanks empty? How about propane?

Did you have passengers and any gear in the truck? How full was your fuel tank?

Bob

[steves]

I started out at Daytona with the fesh water completely full - that would be 68 gallons. I dry camped for 5 days and then had the trailer weighed. So....the approx. 45-50 gallons distributed throughout the various 3 holding tanks. My fresh water tank was reading 1/3 full when I was weighed. My propane was estimated at one full tank and 1/2 on the other tank.

Yes my truck is SRW and the GVWR is 11,500.

[Bill Frisbee]

This information mostly confirms two facts: (a) fifth-wheel manufacturers publish weights for their RVs that seriously understate the actual weights when used by normal people and (b) truck manufacturers publish "capacities" for their pick-ups that seriously overstate their true capability when used by normal people to tow fifth wheels. Both manufacturers protect themselves by publishing disclaimers, filled with unintelligible legalese, in microscopic print that most who can afford a large 5er are no longer capable of seeing. Fifth-wheel sales people compound the problem by not advising their customers of these facts and by insisting that no special license or training is required to pilot 10-12 tons of RV and pick-up truck down the Interstate at 70 mph. Truck sales people make their contribution by insisting that the shiny 3/4 ton pick-ups sitting on their lots are perfectly capable of hauling the units described in the literature provided by fifth-wheel manufacturers (which may be true) but failing to indicate that the 3/4 ton pick-up is totally incapable of safely towing what users actually tow, 14,000 lbs of fifth-wheel with 2,500 lbs of pin-weight.

A number of factors led me to select a 3500 SRW 4X4 pick-up rather than a dually. Those factors also forced me to adopt the following basic strategy with regard to "extras" we carry: unless it weighs NOTHING or is absolutely critical to the safe and efficient operation of RV and/or truck, it does not make the trip! We either buy a cheap version of what we need when we get there or (more often) we struggle along without it.

Bill

[richfaa]

Nice post Bill..You said it all. Yet way to many of us believe exactly what we are being told. We are going through every box of "stuff" that we removed from our previous camper and only putting stuff back on board the new one that we actually use and/or need. I removed 31 lbs of paper last weekend. Maps, brochures. 3 year old phone books and campground guides.A little extra water hose is nice.,.but 100 feet??? same with power cords.I have 175 feet of orange cord.. Here's a good one ..a smuge pot, the ones that look like a cannon ball and weigh about as much...We are going to keep our "stuff" to 800/1000lbs or less..that's it....

[Emmel]

Bill, I have to say that my 3/4 ton and our Monty are within the GCVW of the manufacturing specs. I am quite pleased with my shiny 4 year old truck for the way it handles the 5er. This truck also has the exact same GCVW as the srw or drw 1 ton truck if you look at the Trailer Life towing guide that came this past year.

[Wrenchtraveller]

Bill, great post and only so true. A couple years ago I picked up a Fifth Wheel brochure that had advertized that their units were built to be pulled by 1/2 ton pickups.........in their dreams.

Emmel, yes that is correct that 3/4 and 1 ton pickups have the same GCWR.
The pin weight of larger 5th wheels is what makes the 3/4 tons overloaded on their GVWR.

You have two weight restrictions to pass to be legal if you are involved in an accident.

[Bill Frisbee]

Steve, my concern is not so much with GCVW as with the GVWR of the pick-up. I am familiar with the Dodge Ram line. The GVWR of the 2500 and its maximum payload are both 900 lbs less than in the comparable model of 3500. My guess is that the differences in GM products are similar. That is what makes the pin weight so critical. My 3500 4X4 with me in it, a full load of diesel, and the hitch weighs 7680 lbs. Its GVWR is 9900 lbs. That leaves 2220 lbs for my wife, cargo in the truck, AND the pin weight of the Monty if I am to stay within the GVWR. If weights are similar in the 2500, I have only 1320 lbs for passengers, cargo, and the RV's pin weight. If I am extremely careful, I might make it within what could be described as a "modest overload" of the 3500. There is absolutely no way with the 2500. Thus my concern re 3/4 ton pick-ups towing Montanas and Don's comment that 3/4 ton pick-ups are very overloaded. I have few concerns about the ability of the new diesels to tow the weight of the Monty but I am concerned about the capacity of 3/4 ton (and 1 ton) pick-ups to safely carry the pin weight of big RVs like Montanas.

Bill

[Wrenchtraveller]

Bill, your post is completely accurate and that is why in 05 , Ford raised its GVWR by quite a bit and they did this model and engine specific so my single rear wheel F350 CC 4x4 V10 has a a GVWR of 11200, the diesels are higher yet because of of the higher weight of the diesel.

All the SRW 1 tons prior to 05 are 9900 GVWR so my model got a huge payload increase.
Ford did this because the Fivers just keep getting bigger and heavier and in the next couple of years GMC and Dodge will follow suit.

My 06 2955RL, the smallest unit in the Montana line up would overload a SRW F350 with a 9900 pound GVWR and I will be about 10600 GVWR when I am fully loaded. Well under my 11200 GVWR and still LEGAL. Most of the big Monties need a dually and some need an F450 or an F550 or MDT.

[richfaa]

Wrenchtraveller...Note that my TV, almost like yours has the GVWR of 12,600lbs. I would guess that is because I have the tow boss package. I am not a brand loyal person but Ford had the payload to carry the largest Montana's LEGALLY . It is not a question of can a 3/4 ton or a SWD or a older Tv pull the Larger campers it is a question of LEGALLY and my bet is that with the States short of cash and looking for ways to extort money from the public they will sooner of later (my bet is sooner) establish, and enforce weight laws for LT's/ non-commercial vehicles with big fines for violations. I am very surprised that that and special licensing for Rv drivers has not been implemented as a money making tool for the States.

[Bill Frisbee]

Don, I know that I am over the 9900 GVWR on my Dodge but take some comfort in the knowledge that the combined GAWR is 11,400 lbs with the rear axle having a GAWR of 6,200lbs. I am confident that I am well within this "safety factor" since we carry an absolute minimum of "extra stuff" with us when we travel. I have also spoken to several people with much greater experience than I (including DC people who can drive whatever they want and who actually haul Montana 3400s all over the eastern half of North America with Dodge 2500s) who assure me that the truck can handle the weight. I am less cavalier about the issue and will very likely move to a "stronger" truck (probably a dually) before we start travelling more than a one-day's-drive from home.

Do you know what Ford did to increase the GVWR by 1,300 lbs? bigger axles? bigger springs? did they go to a different tire? Just curious.

Thanks,

Bill

[Dave e Victoria]

When we moved to the Cambridge, I still had a 2500HD and towed from Michigan to CA and back to AZ before we crossed a scale. On that trip we even negotiated down a 19% grade and up a 16% grade. The truck was awesome. But the scales report showed that I was over every number in the book. Thye scariest was the rear tire rating which we exceeded by 600 pounds. Now we have Bubba and that problem is solved. Even with a 3500 DRW we still have a small issue with CGWR when the Cambridge is loaded. So, we never transport water and I have to leave my BGE at home.

[Bill Frisbee]

Rich ... Here in Ontario, the evidence to date suggests that the income generated by RV tourism outweighs the income that could be generated by ticketing RVers who are in violation of weight limits or license requirements. It doesn't seem to matter where you go. The lunacy is everywhere. According to maps published by Good Sam Club, I can legally haul my Monty down I-95 all the way from the New Brunswick border with Maine to the border between North Carolina and South Carolina. If I actually cross into South Carolina, I am in violation of the State "maximum trailer length statute" (max trailer length is 35'). So legally, I guess I am required to detour around South Carolina entirely. If I want to stay on Interstate highways, that means taking I-40 over into Tennessee, picking-up I-75 in Knoxville, and continuing south down through Georgia. I am guessing that, for the folks who run RV parks in South Carolina, this is another one of those laws that is infrequently discussed with RVers!

Bill

[rvghostdriver]

quote:Originally posted by Bill Frisbee

Don, I know that I am over the 9900 GVWR on my Dodge but take some comfort in the knowledge that the combined GAWR is 11,400 lbs with the rear axle having a GAWR of 6,200lbs. I am confident that I am well within this "safety factor" since we carry an absolute minimum of "extra stuff" with us when we travel. I have also spoken to several people with much greater experience than I (including DC people who can drive whatever they want and who actually haul Montana 3400s all over the eastern half of North America with Dodge 2500s) who assure me that the truck can handle the weight. I am less cavalier about the issue and will very likely move to a "stronger" truck (probably a dually) before we start travelling more than a one-day's-drive from home.

Do you know what Ford did to increase the GVWR by 1,300 lbs? bigger axles? bigger springs? did they go to a different tire? Just curious.

Thanks,

Bill

Ford Tow Guide says 3/4 ton 2005 has 6100 rear axle GAWR with 10,000 GVWR and 23,000 GCWR for diesel trucks in 3/4 ton. The reason for the increase is much stronger frame same as the F550 but fit to F250, control arms same as F550, larger brakes with larger wheels to fit, tow ratings of over 15,000 and up. That seems to be almost the same as your Dodge. Maybe more on some of them. Less on GVWR. No more can you automatically say 3/4 ton cannot do it. The new Fords are higher rated than many 1 ton trucks on the road today.

[DiananColin]

I don't know where everyone is getting this 35ft trailer length for towing in South Carolina. I have checked three web sites and each one says 53ft max trailer length which is considerably longer than a lot of other states who quote 40ft. Perhaps I am missing something. Diana

[Wrenchtraveller]

Rich you have a Dually , I have SRW that is the difference.

Here in BC, they do checks once in a while and from what I have heard a few hundred pounds over, your probably OK but if you are a lot over, you can be fined but again they are looking for the worst cases. Our insurance is void if we get into an accident and we are overweight.

That is another reason I ordered the 05 F350 SRW and the 2955RL. All my numbers are fine and the only one I will have to watch is the trailers GVWR and I can always travel with my fresh water tank empty if I have to.

[Bill Frisbee]

rvghost ... The specs for the F-250 you cite above do not differ to any appreciable degree from the specs on a Dodge 3500 (GAWR = 6,200; GVWR = 9,900; GCWR = 23,000). What this suggests to me is the absence of any standard set of specifications that defines a 3/4 ton pick-up. Without changing their vehicles in any way, Dodge and Chevrolet could replace their 3500 badges with 2500 badges and promote their "new, higher capacity 3/4 ton pick-ups". If it is indeed the case that there are no standard specs that define a 3/4 ton pick-up, then all these discussions are meaningless. Every truck is a unique entity and the 150/250/350 and 1500/2500/3500 designations serve to confuse rather than enlighten.

Bill