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Old 12-03-2013, 01:26 PM   #1
2Wanderers
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Installed Progressive 50 Amp with Honda Generator

I have been considering a new surge arrestor. I have a portable 50 Amp Surge Guard and have been considering an installed system. Several of you speak highly of your installed Progressive system. I have not had any problems with my Surge Guard on 15, 20, 30, or 50 Amp circuits or with my Honda EUI2000 (I did add the neutral to ground shorting plug to the generator). However, I seem to remember some people here have had problems trying to provide power with a portable generator to their rig with a 50 Amp Progressive Surge arrestor. Please comment.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:35 PM   #2
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As long as you bond the neutral and ground together (preferably on a dedicated dog-bone or other connector just used for the generator), you will not have a problem. I have used both a Kipor and a Honda in this manner with no problems or adverse effects.
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:16 PM   #3
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Bingo is correct. I run my Honda 2000 with my internally hard wired Progressive Industry Surge guard. I do use the ground and nuetral shorting plug you mentioned with your portable surge guard.
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:43 PM   #4
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I know this is a dumb question, but if the PI EMS is hardwired, how do you connect the 50amp connector to the Honda and short gnd to white? You will need an adapter for 50->30->20 so you can plug into the Honda 2000UI, but how do you get the gnd to white shorted? It's not obvious to me. But my BSEE from 1973 has probably expired by now. :-)
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:02 PM   #5
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When hardwiring the EMS this is done on the inside right when the main power cord connects to the power distribution panel. This way whatever is connected to the exterior connection will go through the EMS or Surge Guard.

The bonding cord that connects to the generator is done using an aftermarket connector that allows you to connect an extra wire from neutral to ground and then this is connected to the generator and is only used for this application. Since the campground probably does the bonding, there is no need to bond the anaconda power cord for the rig, since you should bond ONLY once in a circuit and the campground has already taken care of this. Since when using the generator you are NOT bonded, the modified bonded cord is used and the EMS likes this just fine and there is only one instance of the bond.

Creating the bonded cord requires that you get the parts from a hardware store that sells whatever connector you want to bond (50 amp, 30 amp or 15/20 amp) and then ensure you connect and contain the wires to each lead correctly (plus the extra wire from neutral to ground). As for the size wire qauge someone else needs to answer that question since I don't recall.

Last thing - there is no such thing as a dumb question. NOT knowing an answer is way worse regardless of the topic.
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by jfaberna

I know this is a dumb question, but if the PI EMS is hardwired, how do you connect the 50amp connector to the Honda and short gnd to white? You will need an adapter for 50->30->20 so you can plug into the Honda 2000UI, but how do you get the gnd to white shorted? It's not obvious to me. But my BSEE from 1973 has probably expired by now. :-)
Get one of these at Lowes or Home Depot>>>

...and screw a jumper wire from the ground terminal to the neutral terminal inside it. When using the generator with an EMS that requires a bonded ground to function correctly, you plug your modified adapter into one of the 110v receptacles on the generator, and voila, it allows the EMS to provide power from the generator to the rig.

If you are using two generators paralleled together for more amps, you must only use one modified plug end in one generator. Do not use another modified plug end in the other generator.


P.s.
Oh yeah, this most likely does not meet code.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:50 PM   #7
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Okay, let me see if I have this. If I have just one Honda 2000UI, I build a special adapter with the 50 amp RV receptacle connector on one end and the standard 110V plug on the other. I also short the frame ground to the neutral (long slot) at the 110v connector. This makes the hardwired PI EMS happy and for generator use ONLY.

If I have the companion 2000 with the 30 amp connector in addition to the 2000UI and I have them paralleled, I need to build a 50 amp to 30 amp adapter also shorting neutral to ground on the 30 amp connector as well???
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:31 AM   #8
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You are almost there. You would plug your RV into the 30 amp and adapt it up to the 50 amp as needed, or into the 15 amp and adapt it up to the 50 amp as needed.
The plug OVERLORD showed is an adition plug that is plugged into the generator, either the other 15 amp socket or the 15 amp socket when using the 30 amp socket.
The orange plug makes the generator have a neutral (the larger lug of the plug) and ground tied together. This satisifies the EMS.

I hope this helps and great questions.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:04 AM   #9
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Bonding neutral to ground (earth) is accomplished in a permanent electrical panel when the ground terminal in the panel is connected to an earth electrode (8' long copper or zinc clad steel rod driven into the ground). The neutral terminal block and the equipment ground block are 'bonded' by being interconnected via the construction of the distribution panel box. They are both screwed to the metal box with no insulators between the terminal blocks and the metal box (panel). Generators are built so that bonding between neutral and equipment ground (all metal components (engine, frame, etc.) are integral. Any cord with an equipment ground prong, is safely grounded and bonded neutral-to-ground.

When installing an electrical surge protector or electrical management system, always maintain continuity through the system in the RV. Connect all wires including the bare or green insulated wire to proper terminals. If you tap into the supply line entering the camper to install any ems device, and that device does not include a ground terminal (for the green or naked wire), which is highly unlikely,you must provide continuity for grounding by bypassing the device with the ground wire.

If you are connected to a generator and the power grid and use a transfer switch, then the generator frame should be grounded to an earth electrode.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:13 AM   #10
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Color me and probably several others thoroughly confused now. If I read the above then because I have an automatic transfer switch, an EMS and a built-in Onan 5.5 generator, then I am supposed to carry around an 8' earth electrode and drive it in the ground at each setup site to ground the generator? I would think the power grid ground at the pedestal would suffice in place of the earth ground. We really need to consider what the original question was asking when applied to our rigs, not necessarily fixed house installations. Just my rambling thoughts and opinion.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:24 AM   #11
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This is what I use to test for open ground.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Too...r#.Up9YBJGIAZY

If you have a multimeter or a 'wiggy' you can check for open ground prior to connecting to the grid at the RV park or CG. If you do not see 110v from line to ground slot in receptacle, there is an open ground.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:33 AM   #12
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This does not say that you need to carry around your 8' rod:

"If you are connected to a generator and the power grid and use a transfer switch, then the generator frame should be grounded to an earth electrode."
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:16 AM   #13
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http://www.noshockzone.org/generator...utral-bonding/
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by fauch

http://www.noshockzone.org/generator...utral-bonding/
Thanks for this link! That is an excellent article and fully explains the issue and the solution.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by H. John Kohl


The plug OVERLORD showed is an adition plug that is plugged into the generator, either the other 15 amp socket or the 15 amp socket when using the 30 amp socket.
The orange plug makes the generator have a neutral (the larger lug of the plug) and ground tied together. This satisifies the EMS.

I hope this helps and great questions.
Okay, I think I have it. I know the stick house and RV campground normally have both the neutral and frame ground shorted per the code in the panel box. Apparently the generator from Honda does not. So all I do is take my Montana 50 amp cord protected by PI EMS and plug it into which every adapter I want to us to connect to the Honda 2000UI/Companion paralleled; 30 amp or 15 amp. Then I plug in my "special" orange plug into the other 15 amp plug. And all the orange plug has wired is frame ground to white.

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Old 12-05-2013, 12:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by jfaberna
Okay, I think I have it. I know the stick house and RV campground normally have both the neutral and frame ground shorted per the code in the panel box. Apparently the generator from Honda does not. So all I do is take my Montana 50 amp cord protected by PI EMS and plug it into which every adapter I want to us to connect to the Honda 2000UI/Companion paralleled; 30 amp or 15 amp. Then I plug in my "special" orange plug into the other 15 amp plug. And all the orange plug has wired is frame ground to white.
I'm Mike Sokol, author of the NoShockZone article about generator G-N bonding. Thanks for posting the link here.

One important thing to know is that whatever Neutral-Ground bond (short) you use can only be applied while you're on generator power. It must not be bonded (shorted) at your RV while you're plugged into shore power from the pedestal or home outlet. That's because the campground and home power should have a Ground-Neutral-Earth (ground rod) bond at the electrical service panel. And according to code, there can only be ONE G-N-E or G-N bonding point. So don't be tempted to do a Ground to Neutral jumper in your Surge Protector. It must be done in your generator adapter cable or by using the G-N shorting plug I describe in the article.

Note that if you look at the wiring diagram of any transfer switch for an RV's built-in generator, you'll see that it creates the G-N bond while running on internal generator or inverter power, then disconnects this G-N bond for external/shore power. It's only when you try to use an external portable generator with a floated neutral that your surge/voltage protectors will shut down due to a floating ground. I've confirmed this G-N bonding plug fix with both Progressive Industries and TRC. Most generators under 5kW have a floated neutral to allow for an exception in code that doesn't require GFCI outlets on floated neutral generators under 5KW. If you have a contractor generator OVER 5KW, it most likely has a bonded neutral, so an external G-N bonding plug isn't required.

Also, according to the national electrical code there's no need to earth-ground your portable generator using a ground rod. Just plug my G-N bonding plug into any of the spare 20-amp outlets on the generator (even if you have two Hondas connected together) and you should be in business.
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:30 AM   #17
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Thanks everyone and thanks to Mike Sokol for making this easy to understand. This is good info!
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:45 AM   #18
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So I created my N-G BOND plug today and cranked up the Honda 2000UI without it installed. I tried my handy dandy GFCI outlet tester and it said open ground as expected. Plugged in the new N-G BOND plug and then the tester said the outlet was wired correctly.

Thanks for all the information. Now was the perfect time to find out about the need for the plug ahead of the PI EMS HW50C getting installed.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:35 AM   #19
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quote:Originally posted by jfaberna
Thanks for all the information. Now was the perfect time to find out about the need for the plug ahead of the PI EMS HW50C getting installed.
Glad I'm able to help with this confusing subject. It's a shame that neither Honda nor Yamaha will come up with a definitive answer for generator owners who are trying to power up their RVs. As you can see, it would only require that they include a $2 Edison plug with the G-N bond and an explanation when to use it.
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:29 PM   #20
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Oh my gosh, am I confused by this! I have an external EMS. I also have two 2000 Honda generators. Do I need to do any of this to use the generators to power the Monty? If I don't use the EMS will I be ok? As hard as I tried to understand this I am not sure i get it, but is this only if you have an on board EMS?

Thanks!
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