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Old 10-10-2006, 08:47 AM   #61
Steve and Brenda
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Hi guys, I see your point and looked up that 6V golf cart cell - MK 8AGC2 - (http://www.apexbattery.com/mk-8agc2-...atteries-.html). Pretty rugged cell for a sealed lead acid battery, no venting problems and thats a plus.

You mentioned that two 6V batteries gives you 1712 minutes a 15 ampere load and two 12V marine cells gives you 680 minutes. The math might be wrong because you're comparing apples and oranges since the batteries are not rated with the same amp-hour capacities. The amp-hour rating when the 6 volt cells are placed in series to give your 12 volt circuit stays the same, or is an average of the total amp-hours divided by the number of cells so you really have 856 minutes reserve with the golf cart batteries.

Its been over 25 years since my basic electronics classes but I remember that two 12V marine cells giving you 340 minutes each when placed in parallel give you a total of 680 minutes or becomes the sum of all cells in parallel. If you had found a 12 volt battery rated at same 220 A/H as the 6 volt cells you would be able to enjoy the extra power. So, for the same battery footprint you get more longevity on the lights at night with 12 volt cells in parallel.

Thanks for the bowtie comment, I drew that avatar myself for a diesel forum we belong to

 
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:14 AM   #62
bsmeaton
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Steve,

You're right, forgot to reduce for 12v load on the 6v. The 6v capacity would be reduced to 856 min@15Amp. However this is still a greater amp/hr rating than the two 12v batteries comparable in size, assuming a 24 series 12v battery as comparable, which I can only find
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Old 10-10-2006, 10:05 AM   #63
Steve and Brenda
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Hmmmmmm.... is there a group 24 sized cell that can give the comperable current? Dunno, thats the problems with engineers - we say what we need and then try to find the right part to make it fit

Optima makes batteries 1300 minute reserves that last forever but they might make a bigger footprint than two group 24s in cases. I'll have to Google for a bit...
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:41 PM   #64
boat391
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Wow what great info thankyou for such a great post Steve you made me look at this in a different light so to speak the led lights are a great investment it looks to me so I'll be looking into them next now what about inverters how big of a draw is a 3000 watt and would it really be a good investment thanks for your help
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Old 10-10-2006, 06:14 PM   #65
dsprik
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Steve, I have a question... The LEDs look great, but their max operating temp is listed. Does this mean, I can't use them on my outside scare lights, if the ambient temp rises over 85??? This will obviously be a problem in most areas during the summer months.

*On Edit~ Oops! Sorry... that was 85 CELSIUS (~185 F). Better not get that hot where I'm going. Didn't research that page. What does a white LED cost? (921-75 angle of viewing).
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Old 10-10-2006, 06:31 PM   #66
Montana Sky
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The two most common causes for RV battery failure are undercharging and overcharging. Undercharging is a result of batteries being repeatedly discharged and not fully recharged between cycles. If a battery is not recharged the sulfate material that attaches to the discharged portions of the plates begins to harden into crystals. Over time this sulfate cannot be converted back into active plate material and the battery is ruined. This also occurs when a battery remains discharged for an extended period of time. Sulfation is the number one cause of battery failure. The second leading cause of battery failure is overcharging. Overcharging batteries results in severe water loss and plate corrosion. The good news is both of these problems are avoidable.

Before we talk about battery maintenance we need to talk about battery safety. Lead acid batteries contain sulfuric acid which is extremely corrosive and can cause severe burns or even blindness. And the hydrogen gas that batteries produce when they're charging is very explosive. When you work around batteries you need to wear goggles and gloves, remove all jewelry and do not smoke or use any open flames. Caution: If you accidentally get battery acid on your skin, flush it with lots of water and if it gets in your eyes you need to flush with low pressure water for 15 minutes and call a doctor.

Battery maintenance is actually very simple. By performing these maintenance procedures every three to six months you can extend the life expectancy of your RV batteries. You should make these checks more often in hot temperatures or during heavy battery usage.

The first thing we want to do is visually inspect the battery for any obvious damage. Any fluid on or around the battery may be an indication that electrolyte is leaking from the battery. A damaged or leaking battery should be replaced immediately. Inspect the battery terminals, cables, and connectors for any damage and for good connections. Look for any signs of corrosion. Corrosion can be neutralized with a 50/50 mixture of baking soda and warm water. Clean any dirty battery terminals and the insides of cable clamps with a post and clamp cleaner. If you remove any battery cables always disconnect the negative battery cable first. When you reconnect the clamps to the terminals connect the positive cable first. Never over tighten the battery terminals. Over tightened terminals can result in broken battery posts, post meltdown and / or fire. When you finish making the connections spray the clamps with a battery terminal protector.

Checking the electrolyte level on a regular basis can save your flooded lead acid batteries. Check the water level monthly and if you leave your RV plugged in with the batteries being charged by the converter battery charger check it bi-monthly. If your converter doesn't have a three stage charger the battery is getting a constant charge of 13.5 volts. When the batteries are topped off this voltage is too high for a float charge and it can boil off the electrolyte over time. When you add water only use mineral free water. Distilled water is best, and only fill the cell to 1/8 inch below the fill well. Overfilling cells will cause battery acid to overflow. When this happens the battery will lose some of its capacity and corrosion will build up on and around the battery. Water should only be added after fully charging the battery unless the water level is below the plates.

Follow these steps for watering the battery. Remove the vent caps and look inside the fill wells. Check the electrolyte levels. The minimum level required for charging the battery is at the top of the plates. If it's below the plates add enough distilled water to cover the plates before you charge the battery. Fully charge the battery before adding more water. When the battery is charged remove the vent caps and check the electrolyte levels. Add distilled water until electrolyte level is 1/8 inch below the fill well. Replace and tighten all vent caps. Warning: Never add battery acid to a battery.

Visual inspections of our RV batteries are important, but that won't tell us the actual condition of our batteries. We need to test the batteries to determine their state of charge and overall condition. There are a couple of different ways to check your batteries state of charge. You can measure the voltage with a digital voltmeter or check the specific gravity of the acid with a hydrometer. Testing the specific gravity is the preferred method but measuring voltage has its advantages. If you have sealed batteries your only choice is to measure voltage and measuring voltage can give you a quick picture of the batteries depth of discharge so you know when they need to be recharged.

If the battery state-of-charge is below 70% the battery needs to be recharged before you test it. The battery should not be tested if it has been charged or discharged in the last 6 hours and preferably 24 hours. This is called an open circuit voltage test. To measure the voltage you need a good digital voltmeter.

Whenever possible you should avoid discharging a battery below 40%. Battery readings that are off of this chart indicate the battery was left discharged too long or the battery may have a bad cell.

Happy Camping!

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Old 10-11-2006, 01:55 AM   #67
Steve and Brenda
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Steve, I have a question... The LEDs look great, but their max operating temp is listed. Does this mean, I can't use them on my outside scare lights, if the ambient temp rises over 85??? This will obviously be a problem in most areas during the summer months.

*On Edit~ Oops! Sorry... that was 85 CELSIUS (~185 F). Better not get that hot where I'm going. Didn't research that page. What does a white LED cost? (921-75 angle of viewing).
The operating temperature is indication at what ambient air temperatures that they will function, not the amount of heat they will dissapate. With a 35 milliamp draw these lamps will not get even warm to the touch

These lamps are not cheap as the technology for LEDs to replace a 100-year-old technology of indancescence is well established. Look for $7 to $10 per lamp for the really high intensity lamps. You'll have to look at the wattage of the lamp you wish to substitute and then find the LED equivalent. Also, decide how many lamps you want in your Montana to have the LEDs. Not all the lights in my RV are used on a regular basis, maybe the key lights in the RV can be outfitted with LEDs as a cost savings. Here's a quick Google link:http://superlumination.com/906.htm
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:34 AM   #68
Steve and Brenda
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by boat391

...now what about inverters how big of a draw is a 3000 watt and would it really be a good investment thanks for your help
Wow, inverters. Our lab here has an UPS for the entire building and the number of batteries just to give us power for 15 minutes at full load takes up the space of a two car garage!!! I have an inverter, a small 600 watt unit for running a drill in the wilderness for example, and it does its designed job well.

Like life, you don't get something for nothing. To convert 12 volts DC to 120 volts AC there must be some compromise. Today's inverters are nearly 90-95% effecient but the average inverter still runs around 80% effeciency. You'll get the 120 VAC easily, its the CURRENT (AMPS) that will be missing and its current that makes things run. Doing the math quickly I'm estimating that you'll need somewhere around 350-400 amps of DC current to get you 3000 watts of 120VAC power and that equals many, many batteries in your basement.

The process requires the DC voltage to be chopped to make a square wave, run through a transformer to increase the voltage, then regulated based on load. The cheapest inverters never clean up that square wave so electronics like computers and microwaves react poorly to that input voltage. Most inverters use a modified sinewave which is a squared off sinewave and its acceptable to most applications.

One final thought, most electronics take the input AC voltage and immediately convert it to DC through the device's power supply.
Since you have plenty of DC current available get a DC television and DVD player for those wilderness days at camp.
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Old 10-11-2006, 11:36 AM   #69
dsprik
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I also have 2 cell phones and 2 laptops that need AC. Is there a place in the living room/kitchen area (3400RL) to wire in an inverter (500-700 watts?). I do have a 3000 watt gen, but don't really care to run that all night - or even part of the night - just to charge these items. Suggestions?
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Old 10-11-2006, 03:18 PM   #70
boat391
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love the dc idea but the sat.dish is ac thats where the inverter idea comes from was just thinking of inverter power in the evenings and in the mornings to make a pot of coffee without starting the gen> and waking the others around me as I
have a bad habit of getting up at the crack of dawn way before the Mrs. so would the inverter be the way to go for this?
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Old 10-11-2006, 03:57 PM   #71
noneck
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Hi Steve,
I think Ozz has my vote for where I'm going to improve things...I believe the Golf Cart battery, in series, is still superior to 12v in parrallel just because they come in a higher capacity sizes. Anyway here's what I've done (I'm in parrallel 12v, 3 batteries) follow this link -> http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...ad.php?t=17863
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Old 10-12-2006, 02:19 AM   #72
bobgay
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Boat391, isn't an electric coffee maker is a pretty big current draw on an inverter? Why not get a stove-top percolater and use your propane?
Bob
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:23 AM   #73
Steve and Brenda
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I thought a DC coffepot would be better but what the heck.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:09 AM   #74
Ozz
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To each his or her own. Often our decisions are based on our individual backgrounds, experiences and capabilities, limited, or extensive. What is good, and works for one, may not work, or be right, for another person, for many reasons. Because someone has done a project, does not make it something to mirror, as every one's capabilities are different.
Whatever we do should first be done with safety in mind. If you have ANY doubts, farm it out to an expert. There are so many ways you can get hurt, and hurt equipment, or your Monte.
In proof reading this, I am not directing this at any person, just still drunk, from Sue keeping me on the strip in Vegas at Hooters, till wee hours in the morning. She wanted to get married on the strip, I assured her that we were already married.
I cooked Sausage, eggs on the grill, had Coffee, toast and V-8 juice. I am having out of body experiences.....
Sue is still in bed.
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Old 10-12-2006, 07:52 AM   #75
dsprik
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Vegas can do that to you, Ozz.

When my daughter - who lives in Vegas - got married there, she related a conversation she had with her fiancee one day as they drove by the chapel they planned on getting married in. She turned to him and said, "See that, Alex? That's where your life ends." I have three very strong willed daughters.

I've tried to have the "head of the household" talks with all three. To no avail yet. Still working on that, though...
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:01 PM   #76
boat391
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good question Bob the coffee pot is just a thought we have a stove top just don't use it that much and really I had forgot about it lol just get in the habit of filling up the automatic before I go to bed and turn it on when I get up I guess I am a 1 trick pony lol
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:37 PM   #77
Montana Rog
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I would think that a 1000 watt honda suitcase generator would do the trick. All you need it for is to run the inverter, a light or two and the furnace fan, You would also be charging the batteries at the same time you are running the generator. Do that during the day, and it won't keep you awake. That's what I am going to do..unless someone has a better idea. The batteries are heavy, hazardous with the acid, and you have to know what you are doing to get the right voltage if they are 6 volts...and need 12 and you plan to use 4 batteries. Anyway, you all keep up the good work!!
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Old 10-22-2006, 01:42 PM   #78
bsmeaton
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Rog,

You're 1000 watt generator is too small. The converter/charger itself draws 14A as shown on the keystone electrical draw table below:



Don't waste your money.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:59 PM   #79
mallardjusted
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It seems like the 1000w generator would probably work. With the variable low loads, the batteries should be able to carry it thru the night, and it gets charged during the day. If there are low or no loads, the converter would draw very little current (the above chart I believe shows the max current). Or .... is there something else I missed???

Of couse you couldn't run the higher wattage things like A//c, elec heaters, etc.
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