Pin weight

[Fire1]

Currently I have a Ram 2500 4x4 long bed and tow a 2955
I would like to move up to a bigger unit but the listed pin weights are all at over 2k.
Don't really want to buy a new truck butbam concerned mine will be over loaded on the pin weight. Can anyone tell me how people are dragging 2000 plus pin weights with a 2500?
I be confused!

[moutard2]

My Ford F250 Superduty has a bed payload capacity of over 3000lbs. I'd be surprised if your Ram 2500 differs significantly from the F250.

[Paddler]

Hi Fire1.
My O7 GMC 2500 has a payload capacity around 3400 lbs. I would imagine your Dodge would be similiar minus the extra weight of the 4X4 option. You do have to be careful, it is very easy to purchase more trailer than your truck can handle...I'm currently at 91% of capacity both in gross combined and payload.

[gcrocket]

I have a 2006 CTD quad cab short bed 4x4 and a 2005 2955RL. It carries it fine. I did add a 5th airbourne pin box and pacbrake air bags to soften the bouncing and help the trailer frame. If you go to www.dodge.com/towing you can lookup the capacities for your specific vehicle, it does vary by engine, transmission, trim level, rear end, and bed length. I weighed mine in July fully loaded for a trip and had 2300 lbs on the pin. I'm under the gross combined weight rating of 20,000, slightly over on the rear axle thus the air bags to keep off the bump stops. I've seen many, many 2500 pulling much bigger trailers, including many of the MOC members. Pulling close or over the mfg gross I expect to have transmission issues but $$ will fix that ;o)
George

[Art-n-Marge]

Everyone's truck is different and after all the installed accessories there's a good chance you won't have as much cargo capacity as one thinks. What's on paper has been proven to be inaccurate many times.

Weigh your truck (front axle, rear axle and both axles) at a scale with the hitch, DW, pets, gear and all the stuff you put in the truck PRIOR to hitching up. Subtract these from the ratings (fawr, rawr, gvwr and cgvwr) to know how much weight you have leftover before you hitch up the trailer.

For example, my truck's rating are: faw=6000, rawr=7000, gvwr= 11,500, FW tow rating = 15,200, and CGVWR= 23000.

My truck when loaded up prior to hitching up is 4,800 at the front axle, 3,700 at the rear axle or 8,500 lbs total prior to hitching up. Note this only leaves 14,500 left for the fifth wheel. then when the Monty is hitched, the truck weighs: faw=4880, raw=6,280, or 11160 gross weight. The pin weight is 2,570 or over 19% of the trailers actual gross weight of 13,450 even though the 14,040 Gross trailer weight isn't approached.

The pin weights shown in the brochures are also inaccurate because option, accessories and the gear we put in the trailer is different too. To estimate what to expect, look at the GTWR and multiply that times 18% to 25% which is the percentage of the gross typically carried at the pin. A salesman will say it's only 15%, but experience and comparisons to other fiver owners has shown this to be way too light.

In my case the pin weight is 2,570 or over 19% of the trailer's actual gross weight of 13,450. As you can see, the weights might surprise you depending on how the truck and trailer weigh out.

As you add cargo, remove cargo, or drive with tanks full, empty, partially full; all these will impact how much weight you are caring no matter what the documentation says.

I hope you get this worked out. Weigh your truck first, then see what's left over and if the trailer is too heavy, then you'll know if you use the numbers as 'guidelines'.

Note: Air Bags DO NOT increase your weight ratings. They only help raise the back end to improve the ride and help the headlamps not blind opposing traffic. Salesmen constantly misquote this to make the sale. The reason is it may not be the rear end that needs the improvements.

When you consider that Ford, Chevy/GMC and Dodge offer the same diesel or gas engine and transmission combinations, why don't all the trucks have the same ratings? It's because it's not just about the engine and trans. The ratings were calculated by the manufacturer for many reasons and it's best just to stay within the limits. Things break when using every under normal conditions, why push it?

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

Everyone's truck is different and after all the installed accessories there's a good chance you won't have as much cargo capacity as one thinks. What's on paper has been proven to be inaccurate many times.

Weigh your truck (front axle, rear axle and both axles) at a scale with the hitch, DW, pets, gear and all the stuff you put in the truck PRIOR to hitching up. Subtract these from the ratings (fawr, rawr, gvwr and cgvwr) to know how much weight you have leftover before you hitch up the trailer.

For example, my truck's rating are: faw=6000, rawr=7000, gvwr= 11,500, FW tow rating = 15,200, and CGVWR= 23000.

My truck when loaded up prior to hitching up is 4,800 at the front axle, 3,700 at the rear axle or 8,500 lbs total prior to hitching up. Note this only leaves 14,500 left for the fifth wheel. then when the Monty is hitched, the truck weighs: faw=4880, raw=6,280, or 11160 gross weight. The pin weight is 2,570 or over 19% of the trailers actual gross weight of 13,450 even though the 14,040 Gross trailer weight isn't approached.

The pin weights shown in the brochures are also inaccurate because option, accessories and the gear we put in the trailer is different too. To estimate what to expect, look at the GTWR and multiply that times 18% to 25% which is the percentage of the gross typically carried at the pin. A salesman will say it's only 15%, but experience and comparisons to other fiver owners has shown this to be way too light.

In my case the pin weight is 2,570 or over 19% of the trailer's actual gross weight of 13,450. As you can see, the weights might surprise you depending on how the truck and trailer weigh out.

As you add cargo, remove cargo, or drive with tanks full, empty, partially full; all these will impact how much weight you are caring no matter what the documentation says.

I hope you get this worked out. Weigh your truck first, then see what's left over and if the trailer is too heavy, then you'll know if you use the numbers as 'guidelines'.

Note: Air Bags DO NOT increase your weight ratings. They only help raise the back end to improve the ride and help the headlamps not blind opposing traffic. Salesmen constantly misquote this to make the sale. The reason is it may not be the rear end that needs the improvements.

When you consider that Ford, Chevy/GMC and Dodge offer the same diesel or gas engine and transmission combinations, why don't all the trucks have the same ratings? It's because it's not just about the engine and trans. The ratings were calculated by the manufacturer for many reasons and it's best just to stay within the limits. Things break when using every under normal conditions, why push it?

As Art points out (very well), there are many "moving parts" to every truck...you have to go with the numbers for your particular truck...not the other guy's numbers. Just because you both have the same model (once again, as Art makes clear), you may not have the same load bearing capacities.

[farmboy]

I have a '04.5 Dodge 2500 Laramie LB 2wd and a '05 2955rl and an right at 19,800 gcw. I would not pull even a newer 2955 as they are heavier and would put me over. JMHO.

[jliveit]

08 Dodge 2500 with a empty pin weight of 2300 lbs plus a in bed 40 gallon fuel tank and 250 lbs hitch. I'm sure I would be over my limits but hey it's a Dodge, it can do it!

[Rondo]

On-- If you check out the Montana High Country's which are witht he Helium Construction. There are two of them that have pin weights under 2000 lbs. The 323RL has a pin weight of 1870 and the 343RL has a pin weight of 1740. I don't know what you are looking at for models of your new unit but these are a couple of good choices!

[Phil P]

Hi

Here is something that I am sure will create an uproar.

I called GM about our 2009 3500 Duramax DW 4 door long bed before I purchased.

What GM told me and then sent it in E-Mail is this.

The GVWR has nothing to do with the GCVWR.

The GM 3500 has 2 GCVWR’s one for the trailer hitch at the very rear of the truck and one for the fifth wheel hitch and they are different.

The E-Mail from GM reads:

When using a fifth wheel type hitch the GVWR no longer applies the GCVWR and axel ratings are not to be exceeded.

END of E-Mail

The reason for this is load distribution. The fifth wheel places the load in the optimum location, loading the bed of the truck doesn’t.

I have weighed our unit at 23,000 lbs this is with in 400 lbs of the GCVWR. I find that at 23,400 lbs the front axel would be at its limit and the rear axel would not be at its limit.

This has always been the case when using a heavy-duty and medium-duty trucks.

Remember one thing (1500 to 3500 or 150 to 350) are light-duty trucks. The medium-duty trucks start at 4500 or 450 Ford, GM and Dodge don’t make heavy-duty (18 wheel type) trucks.

Phil P

[Hooker]

I don't know where some of the payload capacities are coming from that are posted earlier in this thread. A gasser's payload will be higher than a diesel's of the same make and model due to the heavy diesel engine. The problem there is the low GCWR for the gasser. So the gasser can carry the weight, but can't pull it...the diesel can pull it but can't carry the weight. Only solution...a diesel dually.

Paddler...I strongly suggest you check your Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left side of the frame. It will list the cargo capacity for that truck. The cargo capacity you list is impossible for a 3/4 ton D/A.

Phil P...GM has given you some bad information. There is no such thing as GCVWR. There is only one GCWR (the correct abbreviation), not two. However, there are two tow ratings, one for bumper pull and one for 5th wheels.

[KathyandDave]

As was said, our front axle overloads first. The straws are: the diesel, the 4x4, the crew cab, the 50-gal tank slung under the bed and the cab and anything stowed forward of the rear axle (like that load of firewood that was so cheap, we couldn't resist). So, we load the trailer more than the truck because we have a quite a bit of weight capacity on the DRW. In our province of Ontario, the limiting factor is the weight limit of my G-class driver's license - about 23,500lbs for the combination under tow. Right now, we're about 600lbs. below that, but if I see some firewood...

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by Hooker



Phil P...GM has given you some bad information. There is no such thing as GCVWR. There is only one GCWR (the correct abbreviation), not two. However, there are two tow ratings, one for bumper pull and one for 5th wheels.

Look at my quote from GM. That statement is correct Ford and Dodge gave me the same information I only requested it from GM in writing because in 2009 the GM Duramax was rated at a grater CWR than the rest of the 2009 1 ton light-duty trucks and we decided to purchase the light-duty truck that was rated for the trailer we wanted to tow.

I don’t have our truck in my possession at this time (it belongs to my wife). When she gets here tomorrow I will check the manual. The dealer provided me with additional information that is in their dealer technical information that is not normally made available to the public.

Phil P

[Ren]

quote:Originally posted by Hooker

Only solution...a diesel dually.

Very valid statement here. Bit the bullet and did it.
The only difference I would have made, if I had to do it again, would have been getting an f-450 for the better turning radius.

[Phil P]

We looked at the F450 but it was just bigger than my wife wanted.

Phil P

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P



The E-Mail from GM reads:

When using a fifth wheel type hitch the GVWR no longer applies the GCVWR and axel ratings are not to be exceeded.

END of E-Mail

Phil P

Somebody at GM is confused. Every car/PU in America has the GVWR on a tag located on the driver's side of the frame. My GCWR is 23,400, so I can load up the bed with over 16k of cargo and as long as I'm not over the axle ratings or 16.4k, I'm okay?? I think that would be a hard sell to a group of my peers in a court of law.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by TLightning

Somebody at GM is confused. Every car/PU in America has the GVWR on a tag located on the driver's side of the frame. My GCWR is 23,400, so I can load up the bed with over 16k of cargo and as long as I'm not over the axle ratings or 16.4k, I'm okay?? I think that would be a hard sell to a group of my peers in a court of law.

Hi

I don’t see any where in that E-Mail where it says anything about loading a single vehicle. If you read the E-Mail it clearly states, “when using a fifth wheel type hitch”. That statement was regarding the combination not single vehicle. When using the GCWR you don’t use the GWR.The GWR is already in the GCWR.

As some one else pointed out I made an error in stating there are two GCWR’s there two tow ratings. The bumper pull is 3,500 lbs less that the fifth wheel tow. This information comes from the GM manual.

This is because the front axel gets light and the rear reaches its max or close to it with the bumper tow. So I would say with the bumper tow you could load a good bit in the bed of the truck provided you loaded it well forward of the rear axel. This information is a guess we have never towed from the bumper. (By the way its GM that calls it a bumper tow. They are talking about the receiver that comes on the truck not the bumper.)

With the fifth wheel tow the front axel reaches its max load when you reach the max fifth wheel tow if you have 20 to 22% of the trailer weight on the truck and the rear axel is still under its max rating. This information comes from weighing the truck and trailer several times not from GM.

GM recommends 15 to 25% of the trailer weight on the truck. At 23,000lbs GCW and 15,200lbs trailer weight I carry 20% of the trailer weight on the truck and don’t exceed any of the limitations.

Phil P

[Fire1]

Thanks all for the information. I guess its either a new truck or a new 5th wheel Cant wait for the 2012 Ram Duelies to come out. New Long Horn interior is uggly reminds me of cowboy PJ's from when I was a kid. Cows etc on the seats Yuck

[TLightning]

GM pubs say the GCW is the combination of TV weight and trailer weight. They also say the tow capacity is the GCWR minus the weight of the TV when ready to tow...we must assume the TV is within it's GVWR.

Last post, I'm done with this one!

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by TLightning

GM pubs say the GCW is the combination of TV weight and trailer weight. They also say the tow capacity is the GCWR minus the weight of the TV when ready to tow...we must assume the TV is within it's GVWR.

Last post, I'm done with this one!

Well Chevrolets publication for the 2009 Duramax 3500 crew cab with long box has a max trailer weight for the fifth wheel tow of 16,300 lbs. The dry shipping weight of the TV is 7,800 lbs =24,100 lbs. GCW is 23,500. Kind of shoots down the idea that the max trailer weight is the GCW minus the TV weight.

Phil P