Montana up in smoke

[Dave e Victoria]

Don (nailbender) What do you mean by "silicon ground wire"?

After reading all the posts here in it seems like there is a lot of stewing about unsecured and randomly routed wires but the real culprit seems to be chaffing of wires on exposed, rough metal edges on the chassis. The most productive improvement in this situation is to make sure such edges are protected with grromets or simiair edge covering. Flexible plastic tubing (like plastic fuel line) can be slit along its length, formed over these edge, and held in place with "Goop" adhesive. This is a cheap and effective fix.

As far as bundling versus not bundling, any engineer worth his salt would have fuse or breaker protected the wires at the current rating for bundled wires. The reason is the manufacturing process is loose and no one can predict if the wires will be bundled or not. If some one is actually selecting the smaller wire (unbundled rating) to save expense they should be taken out behind the woodshed for a serious discussion about their career.

Having said that, and coming back to the chaffed wire scenario, this kind of failure can lead to abnormally high temperatures because the contact being made is not necessarily a good contact. As the failure progresses, it will tend to look like a high resistance connection and heat will result near the point of contact. This is why there will be evidence of melted insulation and the like at the point of failure where as if the wire was simply shorted there the protective fuse would blow and no insulation damage would be apparent.
So herre is the conclusion. Even properly routed, properly secured, and properly fused wires still need careful protection when near metal edges.

[jsrang]

Steve and David,
Well said. You have the proper perspectives. Thanks for sharing.

Jim

[richfaa]

We did not mean to scare the hell out of folks and cause them to sell their Montana's. Dave's post regarding chaffing is a good one..that is what got us. These things do rock and roll down the road and improperly secured and routed wiring can increase the probability that a incident like ours will occur. Was this a isolated incident, we hope so..however there are maybe 35K or so Montana's on the road. The number of posting MOC members is a very tiny percentage of Montana owners. The probabilities are that The issues reported by a very small number of Montana owners are issues many other Montana owners have experienced..including our experience and Keystone has got to be well aware of that.
True the probabilities that a incident like ours will occur among the small number of posting MOC members is very small.. however..consider the big picture. I for one will not let Montana off the hook.

[noneck]

Ahhhh, dude your changing your handle from Richfaa to maybe Richrvia? We are with you on this one and would like to see some standards developed for public safety; 1) routing of dc wiring separate from ac, hydraulic fluid hoses, and LP penetration points, 2) Requirement for anti-chaffing device use for all panel transitions and locations where wires, hoses are not secured or are draped. It would have to be something that the Mfr could implement w/o going broke but then again at what cost for safety!
Chuck

[Tom Gina 06]

One thing about this is it really brings people together, 11 pages Wow. Now that is a hot post or what? It is nice to hear some solutions to the problem coming out. The inteligence level of this forum is amazing to say the least. Now with some of the sugestions for solutions lets take it to the next level, Full Court Press so to speak. Just think what we can accomplish by bringing about solutions that can help everyone and others even not on the forum from having a future problem.

[rvfirefighter]

Until I found this forum and read about all the problems that people were having with their units I thought I was having isolated problems. I definitely know I personally had less problems with my first Montana.
I do not know if this is an industry wide problem, I am not involved with other forums or companies. I do not know how many Montana's have been sold and on the road, but I feel things in the industry are not getting any better, they are getting more expensive.
I do feel that we are at the mercy of your personal dealer for most repairs. I feel that a 1 year warranty on these units is a joke. Most of these units are used a few times a year and will not have the opportunity to be used realistically within the warranty period.
I have had legitimate problems with my unit that customer service has passed off as normal wear and tear, or normal adjustments. This is just a cop-out excuse to get rid of you and hopefully they will not hear from you again.
I do not have the monetary resources to trade every few years, nor do I feel that is the way to get rid of a problem. I am a fulltimer and have been for over 5 years. If a Montana is not meant for excessive use then the company should come out and let their customers know this.
I bought my first unit because of the looks, layout, and price. I bought my second Montana because of the quality of the first one. My third unit will be who knows, I will definitely inspect the units industry wide as I did when I bought the first one. Will it do any good, I doubt it, I don't think so, according to the posts of RICHFAA'S PDI's and inspections his unit should have been worry free.
We all know now, he is having the same problems and some new ones.

[richfaa]

Ahh Noneck.. You are applying the safety principles of the electronics and aviation industry to the RV industry..as we do.. Never happen although it would not hurt.Always keep this in mind...We own Montana's so our issues and problems are directed towards Keystone, Of course. Keystone is not the problem..RV industry standards are the problem and Keystone is part of that problem. We like our Montana..We still feel we made the proper choice.Our quest is to make it the unit is can and should be.Keystone needs to accept the responsibility for issues such as ours and take steps to prevent them in the future. Thus far, in our case, they are accepting responsibility and their service has been outstanding and having met and spoke to many of the top level managers of Montana we think they will take steps to improve..We need to let them know in a logical and rational manner what the problem/problems are, under what conditions they occured and what may prevent the issue from happening again.. Your..&*++%$#@@ camper broke..won't hack it //////

[RVWheels]

Keystone does indicate in their literature that their units are RECREATIONAL units and are NOT suitable for FULLTIME use. This does not stop folks from using them successfully as FULLTIME units, however. But they do cover themselves legally. And they do know that many users live in their units full time.

Most, if not all, RV manufactures do the same thing. Nothing unusual about Keystone doing what they do.

RVWheels, MOC Admin.

[Ozz]

Good point, the Bean counters and Attorneys run the companies.

[richfaa]

We never had a actual fire, at least not one that we could see. We got everything powered down in time.A lot of smoke and hot things. As RV wheels remind us and that I have said many times these are Recreational vehicles and many of us use them in a manner they were not designed to be used. By the time this 3400 is one year old we will have spent more time in it and on the road that we did in 10 years in our Terry TT.We are adapting, we will not let anything spoil our adventure, we have no Apollo.. Who needs it during the holidays, Our Fridge does not work on Gas..so what..we are on A/C..oopps.we are getting intermittent check lite when on A/C so the fridge craps out..who needs to keep food cold. We have no top running lights on the 3400 ..who needs running lights..we are not running anywhere.. One tire/ rim goes flat every 3 days..so what we are not going anywhere. Keystone is shut down for the holidays so no help from them..so what..who needs help. Other than that..all is well..it is not SNOWING.. it is not - something degrees..our credit cards still work..we are good..

[sreigle]

For those who have 2005 and earlier models, and maybe some 2006's, check in the front locker where a bundle of wires goes through the back wall into the belly. The new ones have grommets on those holes. The older ones do not. Prariepoodle had a fire last year in her Montana that started where the wires rubbed through where they go through that wall. At that time we found our 2003 Montana had the same bare metal on that hole so I used some pipe foam insulation to cover that bare metal. Keystone took the subsequent posts to heart and started covering that bare edge. But those with older rigs probably ought to check theirs.

Sorry, Rich, I didn't mean my post to be pointing at you. It was more a general comment.

[campbud]

Rich, It seems you are having one problem after another. Sorry to hear about your fridge, microwave, and tire..I would be stomping up and down! Sure hope Keystone will see to it that everything is fixed and fixed right for you and Helen.

[richfaa]

Steve.. My built in April of 2006 3400 has the grommets on that hole through the back wall.The charge wire that melted did not melt at that hole but apparently chaffed on the frame some 8 or 10 feet to the rear of that spot. The bundle of wires that go through that hole did melt all along the length of the charge wire.Keystone did respond to the issue you mention last year but only after one of our campers burned and I wonder how many others burned that we would have no way of knowing about.I would hope that our incident will give cause for Keystone to take a look at the routing and insulation of wiring in the underbelly. Campbud...I am confident that Keystone will make everything right they have to this point been outstanding.

[DonandBonnie]

Something tells me that we are destined to own a Montana. After reading all twelve pages of this topic, I see nothing that is going to steer me in another direction. My only reaction will be to be a bit more thorough on the PDI when the day comes. I have not pulled up the PDI check list, but if checking the wiring for potential sharp edges and tight connections is not an item, I hope that it is added. Rich, I will be visiting your dealer in January. Reference to this topic will certainly be a topic of conversation.

Rich and Helen, we are certainly glad that you guys are ok. Your unfortnate experience is certainly a learning tool for the rest of us.
Don

[c5racer]

Our Big Sky has the grommet in the hole and it was built Aug 2003. Might depend on the installer if he wants to take the time to install it.

[SAndreasen]

Rich & Helen, Glad you weren't hurt and by the looks of the pictures in another post on MOC you are still having a GREAT time. That is what is important. Life is fun and we all need to learn that! Everything else doesn't make any difference and it is what we make of it. Enjoy life and love it doing it! Keep the faith you two!

Happy winter golfing, Helen!

[campbud]

Just checked ours today and we have the grommet in the hole. Ours is a 2005 2955RL

[richfaa]

Just a observation..When at the MOC factory tour in Sept we paid particular attention to grommets on the holes in the frame. We did note that there were grommets in the holes that wires passed through. However that is not to say that the wiring in your unit actually passed through the grommet or that the grommets was actually there.I mean these things are made by people and people make mistakes...( I love that meaningless quote)

[Cat320]

Rich...based on many years of dealing with aircraft and their horrendous electrical systems and problems, I would caution you to check everything electrical and everything remotely associated with the 12v or AC system very carefully and continue to monitor it for several months. Even though a highly skilled, superbly trained craftsman has rebuilt your partially melted wiring systems, sometimes after an incident like this, they continue to have gremlins that cannot be found or explained. Normally not serious safety hazard gremlins, just little things that will drive you crazy.

[Ozz]

The Devil is in the details.