Another electrical gremlin - Montana Owners Club

bncinwv · 11-30-2009, 04:07 AM

We made it back from the Southern adventure and went to connect the electric and noticed that we had a minor problem.....no ELECTRIC!!! Dangit!! A little history here may be worthy. On the return trip we left the fridge on to preserve the foodstuffs and during the sixteen hour trip the battery died. I have known we have had battery problems for a couple of months and will be upgrading next Spring with a new battery and hopefully a smart-charger type set-up. Now back to the post.....the problem with the electric was that either the breaker at the house (15 amp) tripped or the GFCI switch we were plugging into tripped. The dilemna was the battery is dead so I can't get the rig off the truck since the legs won't extend and I also can't unload all of the Black Friday goodies from the living room since the slides can't be extended. I always thought that the umbilical cord from the truck also charged the battery although very slowly?? After trying to troubleshoot the rig (thinking that something was left on that was tripping the 15 amp connection), I finally dragged the extension cord inside the house to a non-GFCI outlet (I think this outlet was on a 20 amp breaker) and everything returned to an operation state. I don't know if a completely dead battery would cause this by drawing too much power through the charger?? Any thoughts?? It is not a function of the extension cord, or the breaker strength since these common factors have not changed from previous hook-ups at the house.
Bingo

simonsrf · 11-30-2009, 04:16 AM

Probably not what you want to hear, but you can crank the landing gears down to get the truck off. I've done it twice, not pleasant, but doable.

I'm curious to know what is causing your electrical problems.

Tom S. · 11-30-2009, 04:20 AM

I am betting I have your solution. On GM trucks from around 05 and up, you have to connect the positive charge line under the hood before you will have any power to the trailer for the 12 volt system. Brake lights, etc. will work fine, but as you found out, anything requiring 12 power such as the refrigerator and landing gear won't. If by chance you did hook up the wire, then ou may have blown the fuse. Pre 07, it only required removing a blank from the under the hood fuse block, and inserting a fuse. On 07 and later, it actually involved hooking up a wire. I'll look for some more posts and come back and posts links for them.

EDIT! OK, here is a link with a PDF attachment that sould resolve your issue!

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho...97&postcount=1

SlickWillie · 11-30-2009, 04:59 AM

GM went back to the way it used to be. I had a 91 Chevy that still has the wire coiled by the brake master cylinder. Never needed the power, so I never hooked it up. On the 04, I merely installed a 40 amp fuse.

bncinwv · 11-30-2009, 05:09 AM

I am pretty sure that my truck (07 Classic) only had to have the fuse installed. I do need to check that fuse however. Still need any experiences that could describe if the completely dead battery could cause the GFCI and/or breaker tripping.
Bingo

Delaine and Lindy · 11-30-2009, 05:18 AM

Bingo I agree if the wire isn't connected under the hood the Truck will not charge the battery. But we don't ever turn off the fridge unless we are deforsting, it stays on year round either on Electric/Gas one or the two. GBY....

SlickWillie · 11-30-2009, 06:45 AM

Yep, I think you have problems. The truck hooked up to the RV should operate the landing gear. Our GMC has a 40 amp fuse to the hot wire going to the plug. I left the truck hooked up to the RV yesterday (returned from the stick house)to operate the landing gear as we need a new battery in the RV. I think you might want to check the converter output also. I then plugged the electrical cord in for additional power from the converter to run out the slides. Worked good.

PSFORD99 · 11-30-2009, 07:11 AM

Had the same problem with the breaker tripping on the house, the problem for me was that I drained the water heater , and forgot to turn off the electrical swich to the water heater, and burned up the heating element, and as soon as I did that it went to ground and kept tripping the house GFI. It took some time to figure out, I knew I burned up the element ,but did not think that was the problem, but as soon as I unwired the element problem was gone. You mentioned nothing about winterizing, so kind of doubt thats what is causing the GFI or breaker to trip.

On edit: I too hooked up to a non GFI and it allowed the trailer to have electrical,but did not leave it on long was worried about a problem developing. Then soon discovered the burnt element and unwired.

bncinwv · 11-30-2009, 07:20 AM

I did check the hot water heater, switch was off (I will need another thread to describe how I knew this was not the problem). I checked thermostat for heater/AC, even went so far as to start turning off breakers in the bathroom trying to isolate the area that I thought there might be a draw. I think I may have the dealer test the converter as I have a hunch Slickwillie may be onto something there.
Bingo

SlickWillie · 11-30-2009, 07:57 AM

Bingo, I think I would unwire that burned out element and try the GFIC. IIRC, the neutral and the chassis ground in the RV cannot have any continuity. If the neutral side of the element is shorted to ground, turning the switch or breaker off will only kill the hot side of the element. This may be a shot in the dark, but shouldn't be hard to eliminate.

thor · 11-30-2009, 08:26 AM

bingo had a problem like this.check the fuses to your inverter.i had the fuse blow on this and my slides would not work.it has two 30 amp fuses. i replaced the fuses and have not had a problem since. i have a 05 3400 montana and the inverter is behind thr fuse panel.unscrew the panel to access the inverter.good luck

Champ_49 · 11-30-2009, 11:45 AM

Bingo......in another thread you mentioned you had problems with your water heater while gone. Now this and some saying that it could be a burnt element in your water heater. It sounds to me that the two may be related. Just guessing here, but worth exploring.

Dave

PSFORD99 · 11-30-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

Bingo, I think I would unwire that burned out element and try the GFIC. IIRC, the neutral and the chassis ground in the RV cannot have any continuity. If the neutral side of the element is shorted to ground, turning the switch or breaker off will only kill the hot side of the element. This may be a shot in the dark, but shouldn't be hard to eliminate.

I agree, if you have a burned element, and have not removed the wires ,you will not be able to plug into an outside GFI, it will trip it every time. Its shorting to ground. Switching off the breaker to the water heater will not change anything, It will still trip the house GFI breaker.

farmboy · 11-30-2009, 02:08 PM

THOR, I beleive you meant converter, not inverter.

Tom S. · 12-02-2009, 01:54 AM

Bingo - did you get your 12 volt issue resolved?

bncinwv · 12-02-2009, 02:14 AM

Tom, the battery is charged now, so we are on hold until Saturday. Taking rig to dealer for annual maintenance and I will go to Home Depot and get a replacement heater element before then. Everything will be cleaned out of the camper by Saturday so electric and/or battery won't be an issue. Dealer will do bearing and brake check that I have done every winter, replace vent cap on roof that I managed to knock off.....again!!, and any other things I can think of, then the rig will go into hibernation for the winter. The truck was already connected, so I can only explain the lack of power by the battery not having enough initial charge.
bingo

noneck · 12-02-2009, 03:48 PM

Geez...so, welcome home huh? I'm confused how an open HW element creates GFCI fault...would this still happen w/o water in there? Bad battery "could" short out cell to cell and do bad things to your converter. I would have considered lifting the + conductor to the battery then replug in RV to see if that made a difference and/or 12v lighting worked. Good luck and let us know if you figure out root cause so we all can learn from this experience. Thanks for sharing.

PSFORD99 · 12-02-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by noneck

Geez...so, welcome home huh? I'm confused how an open HW element creates GFCI fault...would this still happen w/o water in there? Bad battery "could" short out cell to cell and do bad things to your converter. I would have considered lifting the + conductor to the battery then replug in RV to see if that made a difference and/or 12v lighting worked. Good luck and let us know if you figure out root cause so we all can learn from this experience. Thanks for sharing.

When the burned element is still wired its grounded to the frame, it will trip an GFCI outlet as it did mine. I believe he has two different problems. I think tripping the breaker problem has nothing to do with his battery problem. As soon as he unwires that burned element or changes to a new one and leaves the switch off with an empty water tank his GFCI problem will go away. If he has done damage or something else with like you said to the converter, then maybe he will still trip the GFCI. The burned water heater element is not related to any other problems he is having as long as it is unwired and not going to ground.

farmboy · 12-03-2009, 12:03 AM

If switch is turned off the GFCI will not trip. GFCI's do not work with neutral to ground relationships. They work with the relationship of hot to neutral.

SlickWillie · 12-03-2009, 12:14 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by noneck

Geez...so, welcome home huh? I'm confused how an open HW element creates GFCI fault...would this still happen w/o water in there? Bad battery "could" short out cell to cell and do bad things to your converter. I would have considered lifting the + conductor to the battery then replug in RV to see if that made a difference and/or 12v lighting worked. Good luck and let us know if you figure out root cause so we all can learn from this experience. Thanks for sharing.

I had read somewhere that due to the wiring in the RV (separate chassis ground)that if the neutral shorts to the chassis, it will cause problems. If it is open, I don't see how it causes a problem either. I've never had this issue myself(hope I don't). Only thing I could think is maybe it would cause an imbalance of current on the GFCI by allowing flow between the neutral buss to chassis ground in the RV. Seems that would cut the current on the neutral at the GFIC. That make any sense? Way too early for me to seriously try to figure it out.

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