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Old 08-16-2008, 11:31 AM   #1
exav8tr
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Autoformer

I recall someone having a Hughes 50 amp Autoformer for sale sometime back but I can't find it now. Does anyone remember this????

I am parked next to an "Electrician" and he claims that the autoformer takes power from the rest of the park to boost the power it provides. He says you can't produce power you don't have. I have read how this thing works and feel he is wrong, but, being electrically challenged (nice way to say ignorant), I don't know that you can raise voltage by reducing amperage as it says on their website.

Would anyone like to chime in on this?? Would appreciate a real electricians point of view......

Thanks in advance....

Phil
 
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:42 AM   #2
richfaa
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He is not a electrician and he is wrong... I had one for sale and sold it to a fellow MOC'er.. They are a good investment if you have the need.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:51 AM   #3
exav8tr
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That's what I thought Rich, like being a backroom lawyer eh? I've heard of park owners not allowing them for the same misguided thought.....How does the autoformer tie in with the EMS system. I imagine the EMS would be plugged into the autoformer and the Montana plugged into the EMS with the autoformer plugged into the CG. Am I right in my thinking???
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:55 AM   #4
awaywego
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Phil
He may be 3% right but 97% wrong. An autoformer is nothing but a stepup transformer and yes it may pull 2 or 3 volts more but it boost it 10%. It uses inductance. check this out http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_9/2.html
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:56 AM   #5
SlickWillie
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Print this for him to read. It is basically a variable transformer.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:21 PM   #6
ols1932
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exav8tr,
That guy is completely wrong. It does not draw down on the park's power. As a matter of fact, it probably helps because the autoformer does not load down the power. It merely steps it up for your use. Every once in a while you will run into a park where the manager has a closed mind about autoformers. Sometime in their past years someone "told" them that autoformers load down the park's power system. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I've used autoformers for years when needed.

Orv
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:34 PM   #7
exav8tr
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Will, Thanks, that's where I got my info. My concern is it is from Hughes!!!

Wayne, Thanks for the crash course on transformers. What caught my eye is that you cannot produce power you don't have. But what I read from Hughes is they are converting Amps to Volts to boost the power. My dilemna is: If CG power drops below 116 volts and the autoformer boosts that up, how can you get more power from the CG if it is low to begin with? I wish I had more knowledge of electricity..

Orv, Thanks for your input also....
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:03 PM   #8
ols1932
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I have the Hughes and I believe that it won't boost the voltage above 130 volts. It has a cutoff, if I remember correctly. If you have 116 volts, you don't need to boost it.

Orv
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:40 PM   #9
stiles watson
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I attended a seminar at Escapees Escapade in June where the subject was electrical boost and protection systems. Neither of the instructors were Hughes connected. This question came up and both of them stated definitely that the Autoformer or any such device does not steal power for the campground source. Both touted themselves to be electrical engineers and system designers.
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:47 PM   #10
noneck
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It is a balance system, if voltage is low it draws more current to keep its output voltage constant. You can't draw more than the power post will allow...which is an ampere limit terminated by the circuit breaker size. So...what it all means is YOU will find in low voltage parks you can't run the same number of devices as the circuit breaker will trip, the park will not suffer from you gaining extra from them.
Chuck
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:28 PM   #11
exav8tr
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Well, There you go....Thanks to everyone for your input. Now, Anyone gotta autoformer for sale????
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Old 08-17-2008, 06:22 AM   #12
richfaa
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Google step up transformers then ask the "electrician" if he ever heard on one..it is electronics 101. Everything that we use pulls amps and volts from the campground power as it does anywhere.When we all turn on our A/C's and the C.G power goes down down does that mean we are stealing power??? The "electrician" flunked basic electricity.
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:56 AM   #13
bncinwv
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Most things electrical has to comply with what is a really simple law. Simply put wattage equals amperage times voltage. Any difference in voltage (autoformer boost) will therefore result in a decrease in amperage (the sum will always equal what is assumed to be a constant wattage). So if our voltage boost is for instance equivalent to 10 volts, then the corresponding amperage decrease is approximately 4 amps. So you will have the proper voltage to prevent electrical harm to sensitive equipment but will have reduced amperage which affects the number of simultaneous draws you can have on the system. It is a little more complicated but this at least provides you with a basic understanding of how the autoformer works, it does not draw any more noticeable power from the campground grid. The cheapest transformer price I found when purchasing was from Tweetys.com.
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:13 PM   #14
exav8tr
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Bingo,Are you aware the autoformer is boosting when it is boosting? I think I understand the relationship between boosting volts and losing amps, but if the autoformer is boosting the power and you exceed the amp rating I would assume you would blow a breaker. In order to keep from doing this, is there a way of knowing when you are on reduced amps???
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:09 PM   #15
ols1932
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exav8tr,
I know you asked Bingo the question but I want to add my own thoughts. The autoformer will not "over boost" if that's what you're concerned about. I have had my autoformer connected when voltage input was 99 volts and the autoformer boosted it to 110 volts (as read on my internal meter in the rig). I've left the autoformer connected when the input to it was 120 volts and it didn't boost any measurable amount (again as read on my meter inside the rig).

Orv
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Old 08-18-2008, 04:21 PM   #16
bsmeaton
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Hate to throw a wrench here - but you certainly can pull more than your share of power off the pedestal (nothing to do with Autoformer).

Don't be confused by the rating of the breaker. The rating on that breaker only means that breaker is designed to trip open if that amperage is exceeded, however the mechanism for tripping that breaker is thermal energy or plain old heat on the conductor. By bringing up power consumption slowly without spikes such as motor starts, etc., you can consume far more amperage than the breaker is rated at, with most of the heat being absorbed in your power cord.

I'm sure we all have stories of using our older 30A service and we got away with running the AC, microwave, and watched TV. Those three appliances themselves combined with the converter are actually sneaking closer to 40A through that 30A breaker. Every once in a while the breaker trips, we reset it, but if we ever grabbed that 20' yellow cord on the ground we would quickly learn where the heat is being absorbed. If you've ever hung Christmas lights and noticed that after 10 extension cords and 25 sets of lights your power cord is melting its way through the snow bank, you are probably way overloading that 15A or 20A breaker and getting away with it because the heat is being dispersed before it gets to the breaker.

blah-blah-blah Anyway - can you steal more than your fair share at the pedestal? - certainly - and most big rigs probably do routinely without them even knowing it, which causes the park surges and voltage drops. Is the autoformer a mechanism for you to steal extra power? no- in fact, it is helping you overcome the surges caused by the overloading of other campers.

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Old 08-19-2008, 02:38 AM   #17
bncinwv
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Whew!! What Brad said!!, but to answer your question Phil, remember my Autoformer is in my battery bay so I have no means to monitor it. There is an indicator light on the unit (that is how I knew I was boosting the voltage when I was at Myrtle a couple of times). I have yet to trip a breaker because of reduced amperage when using the Autoformer (which may be related to what Brad said above). Breaker trips are usually related to the same things anyway (namely electric heaters, hair dryers and coffee pots being on a circuit which won't handle simultaneous loads). And no matter what, I have to endure those occasional breaker trips because it does no good to try to get the women to add up the amperage of what they are using and knowing what the breaker rating is. I did teach them that when something does trip, to reset the breaker. I felt that was as good as it was going to get. I firmly believe in the Autoformer and will not do without one in the future (as well as the EMS and surge protection system). One thing to consider is that the Autoformer installation can be such that it is the sacrificial lamb with regards to surges, but the Hughes has a two year warranty and from what I understand they will replace the MOV's under this warranty regardless of the failure cause. I think this would strongly warrant the purchase of a new unit rather than a used one. Food for thought and I hope that we all have been of some help.
Bingo
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:27 AM   #18
exav8tr
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Thanks everyone for responding, most helpful.

Orv, Not concerned about "overboosting" rather the diminished amps available while boosting. If the autoformer "gives up amps to boost voltage", my concern was the reduction in amps available to "power things". I think Brad answered this question sufficiently, (thanks Brad). You did mention you can monitor voltage inside rig, what device do you use to do this??

Bingo, Thanks for your input also. When on 30 amp service at a park, we have to put a sticky on the microwave that says turn off AC before using. Your point is well taken about a "new" unit versus a used one.

Rich, I already figured the "electrician" I spoke with might not have had all his wires arcing properly.....
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:13 AM   #19
SlickWillie
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bsmeaton

Hate to throw a wrench here - but you certainly can pull more than your share of power off the pedestal (nothing to do with Autoformer).

Don't be confused by the rating of the breaker. The rating on that breaker only means that breaker is designed to trip open if that amperage is exceeded, however the mechanism for tripping that breaker is thermal energy or plain old heat on the conductor. By bringing up power consumption slowly without spikes such as motor starts, etc., you can consume far more amperage than the breaker is rated at, with most of the heat being absorbed in your power cord.

I'm sure we all have stories of using our older 30A service and we got away with running the AC, microwave, and watched TV. Those three appliances themselves combined with the converter are actually sneaking closer to 40A through that 30A breaker. Every once in a while the breaker trips, we reset it, but if we ever grabbed that 20' yellow cord on the ground we would quickly learn where the heat is being absorbed. If you've ever hung Christmas lights and noticed that after 10 extension cords and 25 sets of lights your power cord is melting its way through the snow bank, you are probably way overloading that 15A or 20A breaker and getting away with it because the heat is being dispersed before it gets to the breaker.

blah-blah-blah Anyway - can you steal more than your fair share at the pedestal? - certainly - and most big rigs probably do routinely without them even knowing it, which causes the park surges and voltage drops. Is the autoformer a mechanism for you to steal extra power? no- in fact, it is helping you overcome the surges caused by the overloading of other campers.

Hmmm, I just can't agree with all of that. If you put a constant overload on a breaker, the breaker will heat up internally, regardless of how much heat you dissipate downstream. JMHO
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:01 AM   #20
bsmeaton
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

Hmmm, I just can't agree with all of that. If you put a constant overload on a breaker, the breaker will heat up internally, regardless of how much heat you dissipate downstream. JMHO
It's all about heat Slick, the breaker actually cannot detect amperage. With enought heat sinks downstream, you can practically double the amperage passing through that breaker. The most common examples of overloading are commercial office areas. I've seen the male end of a multi-outlet strip melt through the outlet on the wall and drip down onto the carpet while continously serving 3 office cubes, each running a 1500Watt space heater, computers, and flourescent lights. The breaker, located 300 feet away in the electrical room, was only 20A. It never tripped, nor was it even warm. Our clamp-on Amp meter indicated a 48A draw on that multioutlet strip.
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