All Keystone 5ers in order? - Montana Owners Club

dsprik · 09-10-2005, 09:08 PM

Well, I hope this isn't a subjective thing... hate to start arguments, but here goes...

I am in the process of looking at Montanas for next spring, specifically the 3400RL. But I would like to have some background on some of Keystone's other 5er brands. I assume that the Cambridge is the top of the 5er line? Could some please give me a quick primer on the order from "entry level" to top end keystone fifth wheels? And why the price point differences? They all look pretty much the same, but I know there are differences in materials and construction.

We will be FT in this.
Thanks

vickir · 09-11-2005, 05:23 AM

Dave, I just checked the Keystone website (www.keystonerv.com) to see if the different units were listed in order of size/price, but they're not. They are listed alphabetically. However, all the information you're wanting would be found there.

I understand you're just researching, but I believe many of the folks here would strongly recommend that you do NOT attempt to full-time in an entry-level unit. I'm sure the price would be enticing, but I'm also sure you would be terribly, terribly unhappy in a not-too-short-a-time. Have you toured any of the Keystone products? That might be a good way to compare the different lines ... so you can see the differences in the units.

Good luck in your research ... by the by ... the 3400 is a good choice, IMHO.

richfaa · 09-11-2005, 06:03 AM

Take note that Montana does not recommend any of the Montana line for full timing although many on this forum do just that.You might want to hear from them on the full timing subject.

Just148 · 09-11-2005, 06:07 AM

Dave and Cheryl, Take your time and do as what Vicki has mention, look over the units and see what is for you and your needs....
Happy camping,
Wendell

sreigle · 09-11-2005, 06:48 AM

I think the Cambridge is the only one recommended for fulltiming. There are very, very few fifthwheels of any brand recommended for fulltiming. But many are used for just that.

About all I know is the Cambridge is the top and has only been out for about a year. The Montana is next, followed very closely by the Mountaineer, Then the Cougar. At the same time, there are other Keystone brands that seem to be parallel. According to a conversation with Keystone, the Everest has the same budget as the Montana but spends more of its budget on "eye candy" while the Montana spends more on construction quality. I cannot verify that personally, that's just what I was told. And 'eye candy' is not meant in a derogatory manner. There are a number of Keystone brands they purchased from other manufacturers and took over building. That's the extent of my info on this topic. I know MIMF has a Challenger but I have no idea where it falls in the hierarchy.

dsprik · 09-11-2005, 08:01 AM

I believe MIMF is who triggered my curiousity on this subject. I saw his Challenger and that really started me rethinking, which led to this post as I am now not sure. I believe MIMF is not fulltiming, but still made me wonder???

Just when you think you know everything! (Don't tell my wife).

Northstar · 09-11-2005, 12:08 PM

Well you have lots of time to research your new coach--now the fun begains.

dsprik · 09-11-2005, 08:04 PM

So... most of you so far are saying DON"T fulltime in a Montana (3400, for instance)?? Would a call to Keystone be productive, or not? I know dealers (most) would not be a reliable source of info on this. I'll tell you right now that if I get, "Well... it's just a personal choice.", I believe I will throw up. Just went through that on another issue (not on this forum) when I was trying to lock down some hard facts. 3 people in a row gave me that line.

There must be some nonsubjective criteria that I can use to decipher whether a 5er is built for FT, or just for occasional camping?

Montana Sky · 09-11-2005, 09:35 PM

Dave,
I am going to stick my neck out here and try to answer the "full timing" question. Many of the RV builders do not say a "fulltime" coach as they just are not made for that. Once a builder stats it is fulltime they assume a portion of liability. These are not stick built houses, they are made to "roll/bounce" down the highway and the durability can not be assured over the years of use. Now there are so many variables on how one uses/protects their coach that almost any could be used as a full time rig. I have a friend who lives on his boat all year round, although it was meant as a weekend cruiser it works for him. Same goes for a coach, if you are hard on them and have the entire family living in it then the life span of that coach is cut down. I use my 3400RL 6 months a year as a lake cabin, I do not have any children, but I do have a 6lb full grown dog. These are all going to take a factor in how long my coach will stay in great shape. We have many folks here who use their coach fulltime and have not had any trouble, if you do want to look at a coach that is stated for fulltime use take a look at the following,
Teton Homes, Cambridge
Mountain Air, Carriage
Country Air, Royals International
and make sure to bring your checkbook. I just got the 2006 price sheet from Tenton, and their full 40' loaded coach with EVERY option will ring you into a nice price of $148,000.00 and that has a GVWR of 22,000 lbs.

Glenn and Lorraine · 09-12-2005, 01:54 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

So... most of you so far are saying DON"T fulltime in a Montana (3400, for instance)?? Would a call to Keystone be productive, or not? I know dealers (most) would not be a reliable source of info on this. I'll tell you right now that if I get, "Well... it's just a personal choice.", I believe I will throw up. Just went through that on another issue (not on this forum) when I was trying to lock down some hard facts. 3 people in a row gave me that line.

There must be some nonsubjective criteria that I can use to decipher whether a 5er is built for FT, or just for occasional camping?

Dave and Cheryl I want to disect your post a bit...

First of all I didn't read anywhere where anyone actually said "DON"T fulltime in a Montana" I think you are misreading Vicki's statement "do NOT attempt to full-time in an entry-level unit". This is great advice BUT the Montana IS NOT considered an "entry level unit". Quite the contrary, the Montana is on the high side of a mid-entry unit while the Springdale, Outback and a couple other Keystone rigs are considered entry level. I believe even the Mountaineeer is considered mid entry. I do believe that Keystone could tell you which of their many brands are considered entry, mid or upper level units. From what I understand the Cambridge, of course, is on top followed closely by the Montana, the Everest, the Mountaineer, the Laredo, the Cougar and the rest of the Keystone lines are entry level but I wouldn't bet the farm on that info.
Another thing, sure Montana doesn't come right out and say "fulltime in our Montana's" but they know full well that many Montana owners such as myself, sreigle and many, many others do just that. Both Steve and I fulltime in our Montys and feel the rig is absolutely suited for fulltiming or we wouldn't be doing it. I have to agree with Montana Sky that it could very well be a liability issue.

Secondly, Asking a dealer such a leading question would be akin to "Will my F150 be able to pull that Montana?" Any salesman worth his salt is going to tell you exactly "what you want to hear". As far as a call to Keystone? I seriously doubt it would get you anywhere at all. Again the liability issue would come into play.

Third, I would not be presumptive enough to tell you that a 2955RL, as I own, or any other 5th wheel is the fulltime rig for you. Only YOU can make that decision and the only way you can arrive at such a decision is through extensive research. There are NO short cuts.
I did exactly what you are doing just over 2 years ago. Bought my Monty on Sept 14th 2003 and went fulltime on Oct 18th 2003. I spent over 6 months researching the many, many RV forums garning what I felt was some good first hand information. I also spent those same 6 months visiting every RV manufacturers web site and during that same time period I also visited every RV dealer that I could find in northern NY and southeast PA. By mid September I had narrowed my choices down to about 6 different 5er manufacturers. I than finished off my research with a visit to the RV show in Harrisburg PA. Harrisburg has one of the largest RV shows in the country. Lorraine and I spent 3 full days going into most every 5th wheel that we felt fitted my needs. I not only spoke to the dealers sales people and the manufcturers reps but also many many actual owners that I happened to meet. On the 3rd day we made our decision based on all the research and my choice was a hands down Montana 2955RL and now nearly 2 years later I still feel it was the best choice I could have made. Would I buy another Montana?? Absolutely!!
Now after I have said all that, can I be presumptive enough to say the Montana line is for you?? HECK NO!
Now if you want my truely BIASED opinion I'll suggest this..
If you can afford to buy the Cambridge than by all means go for it BUT I would seriously consider an MDT to drag that Cambridge around rather than the 2500HD or even the 3500. If you can't swing a Cambridge and an MDT than buy a Montana. The 2500HD will tow any Montana built. If the Montys are out of your price range than maybe the Everest BUT I don't feel any of the others would be good choices for the fulltiming lifestyle. Remember that is my very "BIASED" opinion.

Finally, I am sorry if this offends you or even makes you puke but when it is all said and done it is still YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE. The 2 of you and only the 2 of you should make that decision.

dsprik · 09-12-2005, 03:43 AM

Thanks, Dave and Glenn!

Glenn, I was able to control my gag reflex

, but only because you gave me great info first!

Dave, thanks! Just my wife and I with no pets. Should work great. Also, I believe you may need TWO checkbooks for that 5er! Remember which one it was? Just curious... I was thinking of buying a lottery tiket

.

Cheryl and I have been to all of the RV dealers (I believe) in N. Mich. We have looked at several brands as you suggested, Glenn. I am pouring over forums getting Info and storing this. I will continue to do this until this spring when we make our purchase. This forum has been terrific. I can't imagine getting out on the road and then finding out all this stuff!!

Thanks, again... especially Dave and Glenn. You have put my mind at ease.

Dave

Bob & Lee · 09-12-2005, 03:57 AM

We bought out Montana in Nov 2003 and did a lot of looking an research, the first words out my mouth when I was at the dealers is "I want to see a Four season RV" for year round travel and most could only show us 1 or 2 .and we decided the Montana was the best for the money.

sreigle · 09-12-2005, 06:10 AM

Glenn, that's an outstanding post. About all I can add is my own opinions and observations.

If I recall, right in the manual it says not intended for fulltime living. It says that in the manual for all four fifthwheels we've owned - three different brands. I have to think the reason for the statement has to do with liability. Those rigs the mfrs say are intended for fulltime use are designed for that specific purpose and cost more as a result. If someone fulltimed in a rig and had problems a fulltimer rig should not have and tried to sue the manufacturer, that statement in the manual is their protection. In my opinion that does not mean we should not fulltime in it. It simply means we cannot hold the manufacturer responsible if our water lines freeze up. Keep in mind the courts generally seem to take the absence of "NO" to automatically imply "YES."

While the Montana is not designed as a fulltime rig it does have a few key things that make it doable as a fulltime rig. For example, living in a fifthwheel fulltime creates a lot of moisture. This moisture has to go somewhere. As heated, moist air, it rises into the attic. Fulltime rigs have attic vents to vent this moisture to the atmosphere, get it out of the attic. The Montana has attic vents. The Everest does not. Neither did our Jayco Eagle nor our Wilderness.

Another is construction built to withstand the higher number of miles a fulltimer will generally put on the rig. Those of us who own Montanas know how well built they are. We have over 30k miles on ours. We did have the flex problem in the front end and the shackles problem but Keystone put a stop to the flex and replaced the shackles with stronger ones. We don't expect those problems again.

And that's another key factor. If we're going to fulltime we want to know we have support from the manufacturer. Someone to stand behind the product when we have problems. Keystone has done exactly that for us and has earned our loyalty to this product.

Insulation is another. The arctic package helps but I would not describe this as a 'four season' rig in the sense that it's well-suited the the temperature extremes of all four seasons. We've made some alterations to make ours warmer in the winter and to reduce the freezing of water lines. But it was not built to withstand extended periods of teen and subteen temperatures. We're doing it but only because we made some changes. A true four season rig has more insulation and water system protection, a la the Cambridge.

HOWEVER, many fulltimers move north and south and avoid the temperature extremes. In those situations I feel the Montana is a 'four season' rig in the sense it's liveable year-round. For the rest of us, we make the necessary changes to make it workable in those temperatures because we have to.

All the above are nothing more than my opinions. After 30 months of fulltiming, my opinion on this topic remains unchanged. Hope this helps a little.

dsprik · 09-12-2005, 01:12 PM

Thanks, Steve. I was already aware of dealers giving "unbiased" advice. I also figured that the manufacture HAS to pretty much state what is in the manual for liability reasons, but thought I'd throw that question out there, though. Glenn's answer confirmed my suspicions.

I am convinced from this forum and many others that I have been monitoring this last month and a half, that Keystone is a first rate manufacturer that takes pride in being able to stand behind their products. No one is perfect, but based on what I am hearing from other forums, I need to stick with Keystone.`

RADHAZJOE · 09-12-2005, 02:55 PM

How are you going to use it? We live in our 3400RL touring the country. So far we have not stopped more than 11 days at a time. It has worked out ok but set up ande take down are a problem and leveling too for this style. If you are going to park it for a month or a season, etc. It appears the 3400RL would work better in this scenario.
When you do select the right unit, take several shake down cruises and leave lots of time for the dealer to fix everything you find wrong. If you are handy, modify, upgrade, etc yourself.
Before you start out living full time in it, get everything right as possible first. You don't want to be stuck in motel while things get put right.

Chaser · 09-12-2005, 03:39 PM

I'm not going to presume to add to what's been said - only to say - we've all made these major decisions and are still making them: which unit? how big? full time/part time/some times? Isn't it just great though how everyone can come together and discuss all the facts as they know them, share their wisdom and let the rest of us be glad we can count on each other to help in such a productive way. Gosh I'm glad I'm part of this group!

Mike & Evy Orlob

dsprik · 09-12-2005, 03:58 PM

RADHAZJOE, we are planning on setting up in one spot for at least a month at a time. I understand that these plans can change, but that's our goal at the current time. I definitely plan on several short shake down cruises. Cheryl is going to continue to work through next summer. She manages a small resturaunt and she promised to stay through next summer. As we plan on picking up our Montana in the spring, this will give us a few months before hitting the road.

dsprik · 09-12-2005, 04:03 PM

elorlob, I agree... this is a fantastic organization where everyone tries to help. When you get together with like-minded people who share common goals and mentor each other, you cannot lose.

MIMF · 09-12-2005, 11:44 PM

dsprik,

The main reason we ended up with the Challenger was because of the deal we got. We wanted a Montana and the wife had two or three floor plans picked out. Those being the 3400, 3650, and I think the other was 2980. But the problem was that the local Montana dealer didn't seem to care if he sold us one or not.

Then she seen the floor plan in real life of the Challenger 35RLQ. It was at the same dealer, Tiara RV on the north side of Elkhart where we bought the Outback in May 2004. When she walked inside the front door, she was smitten and 20 minutes later it was hers! It has been a great unit. We have had it set-up on a seasonal site at Twin Mills Camping resort in Howe,IN since April, had to take it to Keystone Customer Service once and plan on making the maiden voyage with it to the National Rally in Minden, NV in October. That'll be a good shakedown trip!

Montana_4596 · 09-13-2005, 06:48 AM

We have just purchased a new 3400RL Montana and love it. It pulls very well and has lots of storage space, a great kitchen and lots of room. We added a generator (5500 KW Onan) and a stacking washer and dryer. Will travel a lot when finally retired. We liked the Cambridge, but it was a very heavy trailer (17,000 lbs.) and required a larger size truck to pull it. The Montana was the equivalent to it and only weighs slightly over 11,000 lbs. Either would be a fine rig to full time, but the weight and towing vehicle are definitely an issue to consider.

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