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Old 07-25-2006, 06:20 AM   #1
David and Jo-Anna
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GVWR and NCC for the 3400

I see my earlier thread on GVWR and the liability risk with the 3400 has now been locked so that the posting I made yesterday afternoon never got up. So let me take this opportunity to circle back to the initial questions I used to start the other thread and see if there is any further information that people can supply to those initial questions.

My earlier posting went thru some weight info on the 3400 provided by Rick Fox and others and compared that to the 3400's GVWR. The results to me seemed to indicate that a full timer would be at risk of going beyond the 3400's GVWR if he bought many of the heavier options offered by Montana. I asked if anyone could point out problems with my numbers. I didn't interpret any of the subsequent posts as challenging my analysis, but additional info was provided. I'd like to summarize that and clarify where some additional info would be helpful to me--and I suspect to other potential buyers of a 3400.

Based on the weight info people have supplied, it seems to me that a new 3400, with all the manditory options and some additional, light weight options like ceiling fan and fireplace, will probably weigh in at 11,500#-11,900#--although it is unclear to me what influences where in that 400# range you'd come out. In addition, the weights for other options would seem to be somewhere in the following ranges: Hi gloss (200#-250#), dual pane windows (200#-400#), slide awnings (70#-200#), second AC (100#), generator (100#-350#??), washer/dryer (100#--150#??). Does anyone have more solid numbers on the weights of these options?

As far as Net Carrying Capacity, subtracting the 11,500#-11,900# base weight from the GVWR of 13,975# leaves a NCC of 2100#-2500# for other options, personal cargo, water and black/grey tank waste water. Estimates that people have provided for personal gear for full timers have been in the range of 1500#-2000# and more. If one wants to preserve the option of dry camping at least a few times, then one should anticipate putting 600# of water in the fresh water and hot water tanks. If so, by my calculation there is no room left under the GVWR ceiling to fit in any of the heavier options offered by Montana for the 3400. Indeed, one better be a very weight conscious full timer to fit under the GVWR even without buying any of those options.

Does anyone disagree with this analysis?

My second question was whether anyone knew whether Montana's GVWR for the 3400 was based on a real engineering analysis of its structural capabilities. My read on the responses provided indicates to me that the 3400's GVWR is artificially low because Montana has chosen a pin weight of 1975# when in fact, as many owners can attest from personal experience, these units can handle pin weights of 2600#-2800# or more with no structural damage.

Again, does anyone read the responses differently or reach any different conclusion?

That being said, it seems to me that it is then up to any individual thinking of full timing to decide whether the 3400 will fit their needs. And if they go with the 3400, they are going to have to be very conscious of the weight of the options and gear they put in it and accept whatever risk exists with regard to legal liability and insurance coverage in the event they are in an accident.

One final question. Dean asked in the earlier thread whether anyone knew of instances of the "weight police" ticketing RVers for being overweight. I didn't see any replies to his question. Anyone with such knowledge?
 
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:56 AM   #2
Montana_1240
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David,

So. The Invisible Hand locked the other thread, eh? Too bad the flow of information was abruptly cut off. But such is the usual action of administrators when a poster expresses upset. Despite the calls for more information from most posters.

I hope you get your information. It all sounds like you’ve got a valid question, too. And perhaps one that should be asked of Keystone. You have asked the maker, haven’t you? It is, after all, responsible for both the RV and the figures.

Personally, I’d like to think that the figure on the placard as it emerges from the factory is what that particular unit, equipped as it is, weighs. Anything added after the rig’s creation should then be subtracted or added, accordingly.

But it sure sounds like there’s way less allowance than I believe we have packed.

Steve
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Old 07-25-2006, 07:08 AM   #3
richfaa
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I do agree with the first 3 paragraphs of your post..I have no idea about the 2nd part but would make some good questions for keystone when at the fall rally tour.We crunched the same numbers when we were purchasing our 3400 and that is what prompted me to find the answers about what the Hi gloss and Dual pane windows weighed.I do know that we had a really hard time finding the "right" person at Keystone who knew the real answer to just about any question.I find it interesting that the first group of folks they attempt to connect you with is "sales"..the last group of folks I would want to look to for real answers.. What we, as you are suspecting began to realize was the the numbers did not seem to add up.We did not get the High Gloss, Dual Pane windows, generator, we gave up one recliner, end table and lamp (for the bird) and added the 2nd A/C.We would not have got the generator anyhow and figured we did not need the Hi gloss and Dual pane windows and it would add 400 lbs or so to the carrying cap.As I mentioned before IMO it is a struggle between marketing and design/ engineering. Oh.. and we always found the "right" person who knew the Real answer to our question..but then again you found the "right" person who said the dual pane windows weighed @ 400lbs and my right person said @ 200lbs. I do not know anyone personally nor do we personally know of any RV'er being cited for being overweight.We did note a couple of months ago at a rest stop on the Ohio TPK a RV transporter having a conversation with the Ohio "weight Police" they may of been old buddy's..or not???

I really do not think that many of these questions on weight can be answered by any of us..way to many unknowns and a lack of information from the Manufacturers.. I'll bet marketing just hates us.. I had a sign on my desk in my previous life that said (in jest, sort of) "don't ask me any question I don't want to hear." We do that...
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:17 AM   #4
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To those concerned about the "invisible hand".
The topic in question had some 14 pages of responses. If the question did not get answered in that amount of time it was NOT ever going to get answered.

But the primary reason the topic was locked was because of the personal attacks that were taking place. We will not tolerate personal attacks. Take it to one to the boards where that sort of thing is allowed.

RVWheels MOC admin or "the invisible hand"
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:28 AM   #5
richfaa
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Here is some good stuff.Ran over to my friendly Rv dealer in town to buy some stuff and a RV transporter pulled in delivering a Springdale TT, he was out of Middlebury, Ind. This I thought is my chance to interrogate a RV transporter.I will post My questions and his answers.He is Commercial, DOT number on his truck

Q. Are you required to stop at weigh stations
A. Yes
Q. Is that in Ohio or everywhere
A. Eveywhere that I know of and I deliver all over the country.
Q. Do you always stop. Unless they saw your DOT sticker how would they know.
A. I always stop as it could cost me as much as 600.00 if I did not and got caught.
Q, But I do not have to stop, Right.
A. No, I am required to stop you are not required to stop.
Q.Could the state weight police stop me
A. Yes, you are subject to the same laws
Q. Under what conditions might they stop me.
A. You may not "look right" Improper hitching, running Lights out, Brakes not working.
Q. How about weight.
A. Once they stop you anything goes.
Q. Do you know that this happens.
A. Yes.

That's it...No comment..Food for thought.
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Old 07-25-2006, 09:01 AM   #6
David and Jo-Anna
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Hey "Invisible Hand"--love that avatar!!!

As for whether 14 pages of dialogue was enough to answer my questions, the problem of course is that such threads get diverted, and one doesn't get all the answers one hopes for. In this case, many of the diversions provided very useful info, so I didn't prod people to get back to my questions. Understand about the "personal attacks" issue and have no beef with your determination.

Just one request/suggestion--when you lock a thread, it would be helpful if you could post a closing entry in the text field saying that the thread has been locked. As it was, yesterday afternoon I drafted up a very lengthy reply to try to get the thread back on topic and to summarize the info collected so far to help identify holes, etc. I hit the command to post it, shut my computer down, and then was surprised later when I logged back on to see the post didn't show up. It would have saved me some effort in putting that post together to know that the topic was now locked up. Again--just a suggestion. I recognize that being an administrator takes a lot of effort, and I'm very appreciative at the work you all do that allows this forum to go forward--it's such a goldmine of good info.

Thanks.
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:11 PM   #7
CountryGuy
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David,

Re the part of your questions and the actual weight of individual items, how bout going to some online stores, like CW and pull up the item in question, They have weights on there, right ????? So, what does CW say an A/C weighs, shipped, etc. Then, if you think the shipping weight includes the box/wrapping materials, then take off a bit for that.

My daddy use to say, you can have it all, but maybe not all at the same time! I think most of us do that when we order our rigs, we decide which 'extras' are important to us, like we wanted slide toppers and are glad we have em. At this point we don't have a second A/C, and so far that has been ok, but we might add one if we go west for extended summer stays. Life is tradeoffs, even in the weight and the items we load into and onto our Montana's when we venture out of the yard.

Some of this has been a bit techy for ole Carol, but Al is reading with interest.

Carol
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:57 PM   #8
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Since the 3400 is the best selling model in a line of RVs that is the best selling fifth wheel for the past five years and there have been no reports of the weight police stopping one, could it be assumed that there is not a problem. There was much talk on the other thread about the hitch weight on the 3400 - isn't it the lowest of all the models?
Happy trails..........................
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Old 07-25-2006, 01:49 PM   #9
8.1al
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David,
When choosing a fifthwheel one must be aware that almost all of them, no matter the brand, will be overweight if you fill everything, water, propane, compartments, shelves, closets, etc. Also, as you have discovered, the more options you choose the lower your NCC. You have to find out what a model really weighs and decide what NCC you can live with and then decide which options you can live without. Our previous fifthwheel only had a 2300lb NCC and we really had to watch our weight, when we started looking at Montana's one of our main criteria was NCC so that we didn't have to worry about how much water we could carry.
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Old 07-25-2006, 02:04 PM   #10
richfaa
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Oh.."Invisible hand" and whomever others.. You done good...
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Old 07-25-2006, 02:27 PM   #11
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David,

I agree with your conclusions. As you know, we have a 3400 and have learned from experience that one has to pay attention to weights and loading. Depending on whether you carry a generator or heavy cargo in the front storage (we do not), you perhaps might push the PW to 2900+ #

If you just gotta have 2500# cargo capacity (and want to stay legal on your trailer GVWR), as the numbers will show, you probably aren't going to make it with the 3400 unless you pass on some of the options and carry very little in your tanks! As the numbers will also show, depending upon options selected, it may be difficult to achieve 2000#.

With respect watching weights, my wife wanted to take our portable TV to watch when outside

1) We could store the 50# unit on the floor of the front bedroom closet, PW increase: 50#
2) We could store it on the floor of the front closet, PW increase: 15# (still a 50# load, but carried more on the axles)
3) We could store it on the floor between the recliners while traveling, PW increase: -23# (50# load carried behind the axles)
4) End result - We decided to purchase a 9" TV with DVR (12#) and store it on the front bedroom floor closet, PW (and total weight) increase: -38# from our initial plan

It seems reasonable to us to think this way when you don't have a whole lot of NCC to work with.

We've been able to do it, and in fact are leaving town tomorrow on another great trip to the coast - OH Boy!
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Old 07-25-2006, 04:02 PM   #12
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Oh my, I leave for another 5 day stretch and look what happens.... I can only say I have really enjoyed my 3400RL for the past 3 years. Since the primary use of my coach is a lake cabin, it is LOADED to the gills! Even with all the "stuff" in there for 6 months on the river, I am still within the weight limits of my coach and truck. The 3400RL is a great floorplan and I am amazed at the small carrying capacity it has. With that being said, I say if you pay attention to what you load into the coach, you can make the 3400RL a "fulltimers" coach and be within all specs of it.
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Old 07-25-2006, 04:43 PM   #13
David and Jo-Anna
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I am amazed, and grateful, for all the helpful info you folks are so willing to share with me and other newbies.

One big problem I have is that, as a newbie, I don't have a good handle on how much cargo my wife and I are likely to be packing when it comes to full timing in 18 months. Yet deciding which RV to buy is a decision I'm going to have to make before knowing the answer about future cargo needs.

One possible solution for me will occur if Montana goes ahead and puts bigger axles on the 3400 in January and uses that as a opportunity to up their GVWR. If not, and if we decide to go forward with the 3400, I'll probably forego heavy options like hi gloss and dual pane windows, and defer decisions about 2d AC and generator until I see how much cargo we are going to be packing since they can be added later as aftermarket options.

Just seems foolish for Montana to take a course of action that loses them option sales because of an artificially low GVWR. Hope they solve the problem by going with the heavier axles, which should let them both raise the GVWR while also keeping an artificially low posted pin weight. As long as the GVWR label on the vehicle is raised substantially above the current 13,975#, I'm not worried about whatever low number they put forward for a pin weight since you all have convinced me the 3400's structure can handle a higher pin weight.
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Old 07-25-2006, 05:06 PM   #14
CountryGuy
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David,

Points, not techy, just points.

At least one MOC member is or will be full timing in the 3400.

Fulltiming is not like packing up your home or apartment and moving it around on wheels, and it sounds like you are more than fully aware of that.

Keep reading and keep asking questions. I am getting the feeling that you do not currently own a unit. That has got add a dimension to your "newbie" status. Hint, you don't take 3 sets of dishes! (Ok, a bit of tongue in cheek there, or a poor joke.) You also will find you don't need a bunch of fancy clothes. I think it was Glenn that said he did not have a winter coat or long pants! He was staying someplace warm and got rid of all that stuff.

Living in a RV full or long time is not just fun, it is an art and a science. You practice the art and hope to perfect the science. That said, as has been pointed out a few times here, the numbers/weight game is real hard to play, specially if you are what you consider to be "close" on any of them.

I believe a few members had lists of what they considered the necessities, like 2 frying pans, coffee pot, silverware, etc. Maybe one of those lists is on Glenn's pages as well??? Or maybe the ole search engine will pop it up, but, I can tell you it was QUITE a long while ago, so open up the time frame to a year. I remember someone had a really detailed list. You could take that list (once you find it) and figure up the weight on each of those items. Go to Sears.com if you have to, look at the weights. Total the weights on the items on the list. See what the total is! Books weigh, DVD/CD's weigh. Do you have a lot of those??

Yep, David, has to be tough if you have no idea what you will be needing to pack. Don't forget the computer gear, the cameras, and other electronics. It is a rather overwhelming list, isn't it??

And, you need to continue to evaluate your life style. Al and I used to do some boondocking, but we no longer do, as we got older, we got softer, and we rather like our hookups. Therefore, no generator required. Do you honestly feel you will use a generator enough to warrant carrying around that weight and losing that storage space?? In our minds (our opinion here) we would have to do more than a few weekends a year to carry that much around.

Something else to consider, ask any fulltimer and they will tell you they have offloaded stuff they started with cause they just don't use it, or cannot afford the weight. Many subscribe to "if I have not used it in 6 months, out it goes".

You are about to start on a grand adventure, it is your chore to define your lifestyle, your wants, your needs, and adjust to your pocket book, and get the rig ya want and the truck ya need to haul her. All this fits into the personal preferences and comfort zones. Some of this would not be in Al and my comfort zone, but may be in yours.

Good luck, keep asking questions!!

Cheers, Carol
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Old 07-25-2006, 10:31 PM   #15
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David,
Just a few suggestions I wanted to pass along.
1- Do not get the generator in your 3400RL. Use that space for storage, plus you can buy a portable generator that will be able to power all the things you need if the time comes. The benefit to a portable generator is, you can haul it in your truck bed, thus not having that weight in your coach. (dont worry, you will use the additional weight for other things)
2- Unless you are going to be in extreme cold temps during the winter, I would also suggest foregoing the dual pane windows. There is not much added benefit vs. the weight they add. (that is from a Keystone Montana rep)
3- Use the additional weight you saved by not having the generator or dual pane windows and get the 2nd a/c. The temps here have been over 104 for the past 8 days. With both my a/c's running, the coach has held a very cool 70 degrees.
4- Get the hi-gloss, according to Charles Wade(a rep for Montana) and someone I trust, the hi-gloss adds an additional 250 lbs to the overall weight of a 3400RL. I do not have the hi-gloss and while my coach still looks really good, it has come at a price. The amount of time and effort needed to keep it up. The hi-gloss does not need as much wash/waxing as the standard filon.(in my opinion)
5- I think Carol has hit the nail on the head, "you do not need and cannot take the entire house with you in the rv". As you get started, you are going to learn what you use/need and what you can get rid of as you do not need or use it.

While these are MY OPINIONS, I thought I would share my 2cents with you.
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:52 AM   #16
richfaa
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Two great post by Countryguy and Montana Sky and they are right on target..Although we are not fulltimers and probably never will be we have always been weight conscious . Every year we evaluated what we were carrying in our camper. After the first 2 week trip in our new 3400 we have already taken some stuff out.It may take a while but you will be looking at stuff and saying..We have not used this "whatever" for months..do we really need it. We will be long timing so we are especially space and weight conscious with this camper.Dave(Montana Sky) and I do not see eye to eye on the value of the High Gloss finish, We each have our opinion. The high Gloss does look pretty(I would like to have it)( same for the dual pane windows, weight that can be used elsewhere) and weight is not a big issue but to me the 200 or 250 lbs is a Washer/Dryer and a freezer unit that we need for long timing and space and weight are issues..everything is a trade off. Do as you are doing..homework/ research, ask questions.In my previous life we called it a "needs assessment" go through that excerise, as it appears you are doing, and the correct decisions will become obvious. We did not start out wanting a 3400..after a year or so of determining our needs the 3400 chose us. This is actually the fun part.It is sort of a let down after the new camper is in the driveway.Then comes the "tinker" phase.
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:04 AM   #17
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David and Jo-Anna, First of all I think the 3400 has enough load capacity for most people.
I still believe that a lot of weight specifications are market driven. Your most common combined weight rating is now 23000 pounds for diesel powered pickups. These pickups are all heavy vehicles
and it is pretty common for a heavy duty pickup with hitch, cab occupents, auxilary tanks or tool boxes to weigh in at 8000 pounds. Add the 14000 pound GVWR of a 3400 and you come come up to that figure of 23000 pounds.
If an RV maker comes out with a Fifth wheel with let's say a 16000 pound GVWR , then he is getting up into a weight rating that 1 tons can not handle.
Ford has the F450 and the F550 and GMC has a beautiful medium duty truck.
Freightliner and others are making some beautiful medium duty trucks (MDT)
These vehicles are built to pull large Fifth wheels with a full payload.

Montana is still selling some 3400s to people with 3/4 tons so they have to make it appear lighter and I believe that is the reason they stick with a GVWR under 14000 pounds.

Also in some of your posts you mention a pin weight that could damage the frame. Remember the pin weight you read in the specs is the empty pin weight and it is completely acceptable to put as much as 25% of the trailer's weight on that pin, that means before you would be overloading
the pin weight of a 3400 you would have to be over 3500 pounds.

We load up our Montana using the available front storage and we ended up with a pin weight that is 21% of my trailers weight. Loaded up, my trailer is 12300 pounds and my pin weight is 2600 pounds.

The only heavy things we have right up front are the 160 pound Splendide Washer /Dryer in the front closet and I have a Kipor 2000 generator in the front storage. Ford 4x4 SRW F350s have 4" spacer blocks on the rear springs and normally ride with the rear end of the truck high.
The 2600 pound pin weight just levels my truck and makes it ride more like a Chev (nice)
Click on the pic and you can see how level my truck is. It handles my Fiver very well and I need
no air bags , helper springs , or other after market stuff. I have used all these things in the past. This time I got a truck that was built for the job.
Take care and good luck shopping for a new RV. If Montana did put a heavier axle, and higher rated tires on the 3400 , increased the GVWR to 16000 pounds, there would be very few one ton trucks on the road that could take advantage of that extra payload without going well over the combined rating.
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:15 AM   #18
CountryGuy
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David, another thought, living in a RV, full or long or part time, will make you reevaluate what you haul. Everyone here knows we have 4 yorkies. 4 yorkies on PRESCRIPTION food. Have to get it at the vet office. I got in Virginia one year, ran out of food for one dog and tried to fill my written scrip. Well, rude awakening, short story, the dog ate something else for 10 days, his allergies started kicking in big time bout the day we got back to Michigan and I went charging into my personal vet office for a refill.

Since then, I have carried huge amounts of food with me. It takes up room and weighs a lot. Yes, they are small dogs, but food for 4 for 4 months, is still well over 200 pounds of food.

Last winter, I wanted to haul along my bread machine and my sewing machine. Both take up room, sewing machine is heavy. I did not have room, so, I re-evaluated everything in the rig, including the dog food, and came up with an idea. What if I purchased the food in Texas, where we would be for 3 months. Could I find a vet that would honor my scrip and be assured of same BEFORE I left Michigan. So, my mission was set, find a vet in Texas, call, present situation, verify they would indeed cooperate.

I took my bread machine and my sewing machine, and actually had more room and less weight than when I toted along all that dog food.

My supplies in Tana morf, as my needs and wants change. Shorter trips I will continue to haul around bags and cans of dog food. Winter trips, I will try to arrange for a vet to cooperate with me.

We have also become specialists in the "punt" factor. Make one item do more than one chore. This last week we wanted to go to the zoo with the twins (from the campground). We really did not want to buy our lunches there, as it is soooooo expensive. I looked around Tana for a cooler or something I could make into a cooler, preferably with wheels. Solution, took my brand new computer case with wheels, dumped all computer gear out, used plastic garbage bags to keep the food and liquids from staining the inside walls of the case, added bottled water, pop, sandwich makings and a few of those little blue frozen things to keep it all cool. Bread and chips went in a grocery bag slung around the handle of the computer bag! It worked!!

This is a great life, full time, part time, long time. But, you still have to be creative and punt. For us, it is part of the challenge, part of the fun.

Carol
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:31 AM   #19
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David,

I appreciate your questions as I am learning right along with you. I know that I have gone out and bought things for the Montana that will never end up in it because of the weight issue.

Before I buy anything else for our Monty I will make sure that I have traveled in it and need that item. We are new to the RV world so we don't have experience to fall back on. One of the things that will leave the Monty is a recliner, if I need to add additional things. Two very strong men traded out recliners out of ours when we bought it and they had a really hard time getting the torn one out and the new one in. I would rather have the weight for a washer/dryer if I find out that I really need one.

I mentioned that I would find out some police and TX Department of Transportation information and will post as soon as I can.

If you look at a topic you are posting to you will see an icon to the very left that has a lock on it if the thread has been closed.

Colleen
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Old 07-26-2006, 03:46 AM   #20
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Whew, all this information is a confirmation that we all have experience to some degree of weight concerns - whether we are old hands or newbies - that said - since we purchased our 3400 in May, we have weighed on each trip because we changed what we carried, took out something we decided we didn't need - put in something we thought we would need on any given trip. So far this Summer, we've attended a Rally - needed the fun things; Family reunion - needed family momentos; camping with friends - the bells and whistle things for camping - now - we are in transition from long-terming to what I refer to as intermediate full timing - full timing, but not for life.....so we sell the house, store what we want to keep, rid ourselves of everything else - or that "stuff" that can be purchased again down the road, and load up the 3400. Space bags (thanks, Vicki R) double duty objects - a hassock with storage, a roll around cabinet that fits in the front closet (a must have for a pet's supplies) since we do not have the w/d or the generator, we used the generator in the 3295 1 time in 2 years, we picked up a ton of space, but since we are keeping weight in mind, we are careful what we put there. Our unit came with gel coat, dual pane windows so no choice - I have issues with leaving behind those "homey" things that make me happy (one of which is a set of golf clubs - for hubby, it's fishing poles) so you can see, we have to make choices - we have loaded a few of the treasures from home for holidays, for making life special on the road, (and not just camping out), and we have yet to make the posted weight maximum; we like to have a little leeway just to be on the safe side. packing an RV to me is like packing a suitcase...ya may have to repack it a few times before you are happy enough to close the lid (door in the sense of the word) and be on your hopefully wonderful adventure. Sometimes, it's the planning that's the most fun, eventhough it can drive one nuts!

Happy Trails
Chaser
Mike & Evy Orlob
Retired, Rvers, Racefans
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