Extreme frustration level, Someone talk me down!

[Montana_860]

I have been a member of this site for quite some time now, but haven’t posted much as I purposely tried to maintain a positive attitude about my trailer. I have just come back from my 5th trip in my 04 Mountaineer and my disappoint level is now peaked. I am at that point where my positive attitude has now become anger. I have formulated a plan and will visit with people Monday about getting resolution for the problems. Each time I use the trailer I discover new defects and find that the previously repaired defects still aren’t fixed. I am so disappointed in the quality of this unit that my ultimate plan is to get rid of it. In fairness to the dealer, he has worked diligently to make things right, but my question is Where does it stop? Where is the Factory support on these units? I don’t use this trailer every weekend and based on what I have seen, this wouldn’t be something durable enough to use every weekend. I know many of you use your trailers more than I do, is mine just an isolated incident?

Just a few of the problems I am having with my 297RKS:
The carpet is wearing through where the bed travels back and forth when sliding out and in.
The carpet is wearing through where the main slide travels in and out.
The slide is discoloring the carpet.
The heater won’t heat the front bedroom.
The slide seal under the front bedroom slide is screwed up (again)
The linoleum floor in the bathroom is coming up.
The black tank never goes below 1/3 level.
The water pump sounds like a diesel Jake Brake on a downhill run.
A kitchen drawer sticks repeatedly.
I have holes in the ceiling and walls where wires had to be replaced in the slide due to a short.
There is more, I am just tired of writing.

I know some of you have also been through a number of problems with your units, what can I expect? Should I call Keystone directly? If so, who? I don’t want to pay an attorney to handle this, and again, the dealer has been great, but he says he is not getting support from Keystone (on the heater issues anyway.)

[steves]

Your comment on engaging Keystone is the correct action. As you can read from recent post they are interested in getting your problems corrected. Give them a chance to help. Let us know how you make out.

Steve S

[harleyrider]

I agree with steve.if you read any of my posts I have been down that road myself.Not to the point of all the problems you are having.I totally understand how you feel right now.keep calling keystone and tell them the whole story.they are willing to try and make things right.i know its very frustrating when you have to keep going back and back for the same repairs.

I was almost at the point of dumping my Montana,taking a big big hit in losing a lot of money-and buying another brand 5er.But I calmed down,thought things threw and decided to press the issue.keystone has come threw for me.

my problem mainly was my dealer.So instead of dumping the 5er i did the smart thing and dumped the dealer.

I wish you good luck in your problems and I hope it all gets resolved sooner then later.

[CountryGuy]

ksiceman,

Call Montana/Mountaineer, but, try to take a deep breath first . They know you are upset and are more than willing to work with you, but need to keep the discussions calm so that your problems can be addressed.

As far as pumps, they are noisy, that is a given. Do a search on the forum, there are a number of posts of ways to lessen the roar. We did the foam wrap around the pipes (even in the washer/dryer hookup area, and Al put a piece of paneling (or some kind of wood), plus thick carpet foam (the stuff UNDER your carpet) under the pump, and that helped a lot. It is still pretty noisy, but the crash racket is gone, and we can live with it.

Next, your black tank levels, again, do a search, you will find that most of us don't even bother checking those little level indicators. They don't work, we have had a RV since around 1984 (hard sided TT with bath facilities, before that we had tent and pop up). Never had a level indicator that worked. Two new units in that time frame. I know you are agitated with the unit, but my suggestion is to forget about the level indicators working, and use that angst for something like the slide difficulties.

Now, your difficulties with bathroom floor, slides, and heat are definate problems, and Keystone will help you. As far as the holes in the ceiling and walls, one would think that they would have been repaired as part of the short repair.

Hang in there, you can work this out with Montana/Mountaineer. If you love your unit as much as we love ours, it will be worth it when all is fixed and you are sitting around the campfire with a hot chocolate and good friends.

[padredw]

KSiceman, I just want to say that Al and Carol have spoken with wisdom and from experience. I completely agree with them that you need to separate the things that are almost a "given" for RVs and the things that really are a problem. I have had three different 5/wheels, each from a different maker. The tank guages NEVER work. They may give some indication, but the technology is simply not able to give accurate readings. And all three pumps made more noise than I liked. The suggestions which have been given will probably help that a lot. One thing I have in common with you. The "slide seal" at the bottom of the bedroom slide was "screwed up" the first time we ever put it out. We spent much effort and frustration, finally taking the RV back to Florida (after several failed attempts to get it fixed) where we bought it. Looking back, I'm not sure it mattered that much. It is better, but it should have been 'right' in the first place. So ... center down on the main issues, try to put aside the things that are fairly common in RVs. Try to get the main problems fixed by focusing on them. And in honesty I must say, it is easier to give such advice than it is to follow it! Good luck, and hang in there!

[Montana_860]

OK, it's now 9:35 AM and though I am no more rational or awake, I should probably clarify a couple of things:

The pump. Yes, you folks are correct, they are all noisy. I have only had three trailers so not much to compare to, but this one seems exceptionally noisy. It seems noisier to me now than it did at first purchase. Associated with that noise is a secondary problem in that there seems to be a substantial fluctuation in water pressure. (We have always used hook ups with this trailer so I haven't noticed this extreme change in pressures while running water.) There are times when the water pump makes a noise similar to water pipes banging in the wall of an old house. I am sure the dealer will check that out but again you are correct in saving my steam for the big issues.

As for the black tank, I suppose I could attempt to dump 38 gallons of water down the toilet and see what happens. That was one of those "just one more thing to deal with" type problems.

The holes in the wall and ceiling were covered, it just irks me that a brand new rig has to be cut up to find a problem created by the manufacturer. On top of that, when the mechanic called about a wiring diagram he was told they didn't exist. Did Keystone have a plan when they decided to build these?

Now for the biggies... The dealer (one of his employees) has indicated to me that Keystone is not willing to step up to the plate and assist with the heater issue. I really truly did buy this unit so I could do some cold(er) weather camping and the "arctic package" is supposed to address those needs. I suppose I misunderstood the option. Arctic Package must mean it You're gonna get cold!
In defense of the dealer, the owner really has been great, but he has not personally dealt with the MFR yet. That will soon change. My primary concern is this little quip in the owners manual as brought out in another forum. Keystone claims these units are not worthy of full time usage. OK, I understand full timing might put extra stress on the unit, but what amount of usage will they withstand? I have only had mine out 5 times and I am a meticulous person when it comes to care. (My microwave still has the protective plastic over the buttons.) My carpet is ripping, discolored and worn from just five trips, what could I expect if I used this thing every weekend?
Am I making sense here?
BTW, thanks for the input. Between your theraputic advice and this bottle of whiskey, I think I feel better all ready.

[azstar]

ksiceman,

Boy can I relate. A lot of little things are sometimes more than irritating, their enought to make you crazy.

I see there's a post today about some replacement floor regesters from Lowes that might help with the heat thing.

I also saw the problem coming with the carpet in the BR. If yours is the same problem with the bed wheels wearing the carpet, you may do what I did. I bought larger caster wheels from Home Depot turned them upside down and mounted them to the floor. Now the bed rails ride on the wheels and not the wheels on the carpet. If you decide to do this I have pictures and instructions.

You will get through this. As is said, "This too shall pass"

[sreigle]

Ksiceman, first of all, I went to grade school in Wichita and have relatives there yet.

I also agree with Carol and Al and the others. The best solution for the pump is to insulate pipes and the walls in the pump area and also under the pump itself, as others said. All four of our fivers have had noisy pumps. Or you can by a quiet one. What is it, WhisperQuiet or something like that?

I also agree with them on the tank gauges. None of them ever work for long. You can fill your black tank maybe half to 2/3 full and dump several bags of cubed ice in it, then drive it enough for the ice to scrub the walls and thus the sensors. Or you can replace the whole gauge unit with one with external sensors that supposedly work much better. Most of us just quit using the gauge. We've used ours enough to know how long before it needs dumping. Plus, when we're on the last day before dumping it will "plop" when flushing. Sounds gross but it's just the flush water. I assume it's reached the vent level when it does that. I usually then close the gray tank valves to accumulate some water in them then dump the next day.

On our first Montana, we had not enough heat in the bedroom. Our dealer looked at the distribution box under the step from downstairs to upstairs. He found a loose connection of a hose. Plus he found the one that would carry the most heat was going to the bathroom, not the bedroom, so he reversed those. You don't get a lot of heat upstairs anyhow in any one I've ever seen. We spend Nov/Dec in Kansas City area so we close the door between upstairs and downstairs and augment heat with a small electric heater. My aunt and uncle even used to do this in their Excel Noble Esquire, which is classified as a fulltimers' rig.

95% of all FW brands say they are not intended for fulltime living. The ones who identify themselves for that purpose are the high dollar rigs. But many of us are doing just fine fulltiming in Montanas and Mountaineers. We have to do some things like shrinkwrap the windows, like you did, but it's doable.

I also recommend you call (don't email) Keystone and talk to them with a concerned but calm demeanor. I don't know the number but you should be able to find it somewhere on their website at http://www.keystone-mountaineer.com .

Good luck. Please update us on your situation.

Just took a quick look. The number is (574) 535-2100. Don't see a toll-free number.

[Montana_860]

Sreigle,

I have travelled along on some of your journeys and one day I too hope to wander about the countryside. I had hoped it would be in my lightly used Mountaineer but in 7 more years I may have to be in the market again. I have inlaws in the Topeka area and visit KC about once a month on business. One day we will have to meet up and swap stories. Thanks for the info, maybe I just have high expectations. I wish it were a dealer problem like Harleyrider had because I could easily find another dealer. Of course I may call Keystone Monday and hear a different tune than the service department. I will be patient. AZTAR, send me some pics! I am going to show them to the dealer and when they replace the carpet, they can fix the wheels. We did do the registers from Lowes but so far it has not been cold enough to field test. I still dont get an abundace of air from the front bedroom vent.
My blood pressure seems to be subsiding, I have put away the maps to Keystone's offices and after two or three more bottles I really won't care anymore.

[sreigle]

Ksiceman, by all means let us know when you'll be in KC and maybe we can get together. We're in an RV Park in Independence, MO, until after Christmas.

I don't think any of us get much heat from the bedroom registers. You should feel a little, though. I guess the thinking is heat rises into the bedroom from downstairs when the door is open. When the door is closed it's heating a small area. I don't think it's enough, anyhow, so we augment with electric heat. That doesn't help if you're not hooked up to shore power.

In this park we don't pay for electricity so we'll use electric heat as our primary. We'll set the furnace to run enough to avoid freezing the tanks and pipes. These things do get chilly in subfreezing weather, despite the arctic insulation package. That's why we're adding some more insulation this time around.

[CountryGuy]

Steve,

As you know, we have the same unit, 3295RK, I swear that when we run the furnace the bedroom gets quite a bit of warm/hot air up there. We have at least one floor vent and another vent that comes right out of the tub front. (I know that one works, I was washing a dirty and messy dog one night and the furnace was running and it nearly cooked me out of there, as it was blowing RIGHT on my tummy, as I knelt in front of the tub washing Captain Hook.)

Anyway, the point is, we get heat up there.

Ksiceman, If your unit is under warranty, why is the service person stating that Keystone won't do anything about the heat situation?? I am a bit confused over that.

As far as the Artic package, we are sorry it is not named the "Summer package". We find our unit very comfortable in the summer weather we have camped in (No Arizona in the summer heat, but a few 90 to 100 degree days in Virginia and here in Michigan). We find the floors chill easy, if you are not running the furnace full time. We also frequently use electric heaters, and then I have to have shoes or slippers on in the unit or my toes are COOLLLDDDDD brrrrr!! We also have rugs in the kitchen now, to help keep the toes from really freezing. That said, I would hate to try the unit WITHOUT the Artic package, oh, man, that really sounds cold!

[sreigle]

Carol, yes, we do get some heat from the vent under the tub. We get very, very little out of the one by the bed. But it sounds like we don't get as much heat up there as you do from yours. I may have to check the lines for obstacles, etc., one of these days.

[ols1932]

ksiceman:
I fully agree with Steve's comments. Some things are peculiar to RVs, like the holding tank sensors. I just disregard them all and have for years. I've talked to hundreds of RV owners and none of the sensors work.

Your problems are probably more related to your dealer rather than Keystone itself. Sure, Keystone, like any other factory may have some problems, but our experience with them is that they will bend over backwards at the factory if you can get to Goshen with your rig. They certainly did more than was expected for us.

When I talked with them face to face, they all agreed that many of the dealers do not pass on information to the factory concerning consumer problems.

I think you would be doing yourself a great favor and would have a lot more confidence in Keystone and your rig if you give them a call at Customer Service. If possible, talk to Lon Nelson. He will tell you if they can help. I'm sure they can.

[Montana_860]

Carol, I am also confused by the comments made by the service manager at the dealer. I am wondering if the problem is with him, not Keystone. I will know Monday. I am on a first name basis with the owner and he calls me often to ask questions of me (unrelated to the trailer.) Matter of fact, one evening we stayed after hours and had some enlightening conversation.

By the way, when my heater is on it will burn your feet in the rear kitchen. We may have to throw a rug down for burn prevention. I have no vent in the bathroom and only one in the front bedroom.

OLS thanks for the info. I will keep you all posted.

[contau lake]

Bill, I agree 100% with everything that's been said in the forums. I've a 2850 Montana, and find the same problems as most others: you cook near the rear kitchen and little heat gets to the bedroom area. When we're hooked up to power there is no problem but when dry camping as we do in sub freezing temps in Dec. on our way south, it can be a little testy. I think when they say Arctic Package they mean its easier to keep it cooler in summer as opposed to warmer in winter. If you follow a number of the full timer's posts, everyone does a lot of extras to get through the cold. It would appear that you will get your answers from keystone and will know where you stand re what your dealer has done and if in fact Keystone has been contacted! Good luck!!

[Sue]

quote:Originally posted by contau lake

find the same problems as most others: you cook near the rear kitchen and little heat gets to the bedroom area.

Probably a dumb suggestion here, but would closing a vent in one room, like the kitchen, force more heat to the bedroom?

[Montana_860]

Sue,

The dealers new service guy did put louvered register covers on so we can now close both the living room and kitchen vents. It still roasts your toes in the kitchen and a little more air flows in the front bedroom, but it hasn't been cold enough to test how well the heat flows. The service guy did put a infra red thermometer on it and it shows over 100 degrees at the vent. There just isn't enough air flow.

[Montana_650]

quote:Originally posted by ksiceman

I have been a member of this site for quite some time now, but haven’t posted much as I purposely tried to maintain a positive attitude about my trailer. I have just come back from my 5th trip in my 04 Mountaineer and my disappoint level is now peaked. I am at that point where my positive attitude has now become anger. I have formulated a plan and will visit with people Monday about getting resolution for the problems. Each time I use the trailer I discover new defects and find that the previously repaired defects still aren’t fixed. I am so disappointed in the quality of this unit that my ultimate plan is to get rid of it. In fairness to the dealer, he has worked diligently to make things right, but my question is Where does it stop? Where is the Factory support on these units? I don’t use this trailer every weekend and based on what I have seen, this wouldn’t be something durable enough to use every weekend. I know many of you use your trailers more than I do, is mine just an isolated incident?

Just a few of the problems I am having with my 297RKS:
The carpet is wearing through where the bed travels back and forth when sliding out and in.
The carpet is wearing through where the main slide travels in and out.
The slide is discoloring the carpet.
The heater won’t heat the front bedroom.
The slide seal under the front bedroom slide is screwed up (again)
The linoleum floor in the bathroom is coming up.
The black tank never goes below 1/3 level.
The water pump sounds like a diesel Jake Brake on a downhill run.
A kitchen drawer sticks repeatedly.
I have holes in the ceiling and walls where wires had to be replaced in the slide due to a short.
There is more, I am just tired of writing.

I know some of you have also been through a number of problems with your units, what can I expect? Should I call Keystone directly? If so, who? I don’t want to pay an attorney to handle this, and again, the dealer has been great, but he says he is not getting support from Keystone (on the heater issues anyway.)

[Montana_650]

Sorry about your trouble. Had some of the same problems with my Montana 2980RL. The black tank problem turned out to be sensors in the tank mounted incorrectly. My rig has been at the dealer more than in my possession. Right now they are deciding if both sides need to come off and be replaced because of delamination in the Filon. Still under warranty but I'd like to have it available more often.
UncleD

quote:Originally posted by ksiceman

I have been a member of this site for quite some time now, but haven’t posted much as I purposely tried to maintain a positive attitude about my trailer. I have just come back from my 5th trip in my 04 Mountaineer and my disappoint level is now peaked. I am at that point where my positive attitude has now become anger. I have formulated a plan and will visit with people Monday about getting resolution for the problems. Each time I use the trailer I discover new defects and find that the previously repaired defects still aren’t fixed. I am so disappointed in the quality of this unit that my ultimate plan is to get rid of it. In fairness to the dealer, he has worked diligently to make things right, but my question is Where does it stop? Where is the Factory support on these units? I don’t use this trailer every weekend and based on what I have seen, this wouldn’t be something durable enough to use every weekend. I know many of you use your trailers more than I do, is mine just an isolated incident?

Just a few of the problems I am having with my 297RKS:
The carpet is wearing through where the bed travels back and forth when sliding out and in.
The carpet is wearing through where the main slide travels in and out.
The slide is discoloring the carpet.
The heater won’t heat the front bedroom.
The slide seal under the front bedroom slide is screwed up (again)
The linoleum floor in the bathroom is coming up.
The black tank never goes below 1/3 level.
The water pump sounds like a diesel Jake Brake on a downhill run.
A kitchen drawer sticks repeatedly.
I have holes in the ceiling and walls where wires had to be replaced in the slide due to a short.
There is more, I am just tired of writing.

I know some of you have also been through a number of problems with your units, what can I expect? Should I call Keystone directly? If so, who? I don’t want to pay an attorney to handle this, and again, the dealer has been great, but he says he is not getting support from Keystone (on the heater issues anyway.)

[dbrill]

Ksiceman,

Yes 38 gallons of water in the tank and then cutting it loose will work as I have done it, but the next time something goes down in the tank it hangs on the sensor again. Like most have said I have just given up on the sensors. You could also try one of the flush wands you stick down the toilet and see if that works. As for the pump make sure they did not install in up against the wall, our was and moving it so it wasn't vibrating the wall change the sound from a freight train to the normal dull roar.