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Old 04-22-2014, 12:47 PM   #1
richfaa
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IT FELL ON THE FLOOR

I CAN'T BELEIVE IT. That large chunk of decorative paneling that is above the kitchen slide out in the 3402 all 87 1/2 inches of it fell off the wall and on the floor. there I am letting the slides out. I have my finger on the rocker switch. Bedroom slide out. Kitchen slide on the way out .I am looking at the slide as is my habit and the entire panel drops off the wall. It hits nothing , there is nothing for it to catch on. am I to understand that it vibrated out on the way home from Florida..... What the???? It will not go back on/ We are going to the dealer May 6th for tank repairs. Keystone and I have got to have a long talk.
 
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:55 PM   #2
Bill-N-Donna
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I believe I’d be talking with them as well if it were me!
Hope they take care of it quickly.

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Old 04-22-2014, 02:25 PM   #3
Phil P
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Hi

I think you are about to find out what I have been talking about.

Just bite the built and spend the $20,000 it will take to finish that do-it-yourself kit you purchased.

Phil P
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:30 PM   #4
richfaa
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But wait... opening up the house after the winter is a Chore. We got home Sunday afternoon and began to get everything in working order. This morning we have water on the utility room floor. The 25 year old hot water tank gave it up. being a believer in service plans we have a contract with a local company. They were right on it. Just left at 7:30 Pm and we have dry floor, new hot water tank but not completely installed. Need to reroute the venting which they well do in the AM and there is no overtime or emergency charges. We have been using these guys for about 15 years. They are great. We have cold water but no hot water in the S&B...however the Montana is right outside on the pad, full hookups. Run a couple of water hoses, hook up the waste hose. Turn on the hot water heater and ....hot water. I just took a nice shower. Except for the wall panel falling off when we let the slides out we are good. The Montana giveth and the Montana taketh away.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:33 PM   #5
pineranch
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Did you put a 2" hitch on the rear? Were you towing anything weighing more than 12 ounces.
Keep the pressure on keystone.
Mike
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:35 PM   #6
richfaa
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Phil P

Hi

I think you are about to find out what I have been talking about.

Just bite the built and spend the $20,000 it will take to finish that do-it-yourself kit you purchased.

Phil P
Not a chance Phil. Our Rv'ing days might be over but we won't be spending near that kind of money .Worst case is it will stay at the dealership and I will take what I can get out of it. We are completely emptying the Rv just in case. I might lose 20K but I will not spend 20K
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:36 PM   #7
richfaa
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by pineranch

Did you put a 2" hitch on the rear? Were you towing anything weighing more than 12 ounces.
Keep the pressure on keystone.
Mike
It may have been I-95 in S.C. It was bone jarring.
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:19 PM   #8
Phil P
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Well acutely now that I have the trailer finished and all of the damage caused by the unfinished workmanship fixed we are beginning to enjoy the trailer.

The stuff I am having done now is what I would consider normal maintenance.

By the way. I have been watching all of these post about frame flex.

That is one issue I haven’t had and besides all of the “stuff” we all carry in these things I have more than half of the 70,000 miles we have put on this trailer carrying a 1,000 LB 1/8 scale coal fired steam locomotive in the basement all the way forward against the firewall for the gen compartment. The only frame problem I have had is with the rear spring hangers.




I am convinced that the frame flex is the result of an unqualified technician operating the weld machine that Lippert uses. I am told all welds are performed by a machine at the same time. This only means if you have an unqualified technician operating the machines then all the welds are bad.I am sure that Lippert has more than one technician operating that welding machine and if someone was interested enough to research the broken frames I would bet a steak dinner that the failed ones were all welded on the same day or several days in a row.

However when my metal structure engineer saw the pictures of the spring hangers he stated that Lippert needed an engineer that had some welding training. My engineer stated that you can’t weld a stamped piece of metal like the spring hangers on the curve. The stamping process expands the metal to its structural design and when you weld on the curve the carbon transfer from the base metal to the weld destroys most of the structural value. He stated that the bracket should be stamped with a hole in the middle so the open ends could be welded and then the hole is welded and the curved area is not welded on.

I worked with the same engineer for just short of 50 years. I sure miss him he passed away a few days before last Christmas.

Phil P
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:28 PM   #9
Phil P
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

The 25 year old hot water tank gave it up. being a believer in service plans we have a contract with a local company.
My home owner’s insurance company put a clause in my insurance policy disallowing any coverage for water damage if my almost 20 year old water heater failed and my heater is in a containment so water won’t get on the floor the containment drain is piped out to the front of the house so if the heater leaks the water runs harmlessly on the front yard.

Phil P
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:09 PM   #10
bjlks
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Phil P

Hi

I think you are about to find out what I have been talking about.

Just bite the built and spend the $20,000 it will take to finish that do-it-yourself kit you purchased.

Phil P


X2
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:31 PM   #11
richfaa
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The water heater is in the utility room on the lowest level and there is a floor drain in the utility room. We drained the tank and water did leak out but went down the drain. The bottom rusted out. Did not realize the tank was that old .The build date on it was 1988..They could not believe it lasted that long. The son of the owner of the service company was doing the work today and he noted the tank was one year older than he was.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:35 PM   #12
Nelsen55
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I feel your pain, we own a 2011 Montana, Model 3585SA. Brought the camper home from the lake one day and opened the slides to find the valance from the living room slide out on the floor. I picked up the pieces and thank goodness for gorilla glue and 8 penny finish nails!
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:55 PM   #13
Irlpguy
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Phil P



I am convinced that the frame flex is the result of an unqualified technician operating the weld machine that Lippert uses. I am told all welds are performed by a machine at the same time. This only means if you have an unqualified technician operating the machines then all the welds are bad.I am sure that Lippert has more than one technician operating that welding machine and if someone was interested enough to research the broken frames I would bet a steak dinner that the failed ones were all welded on the same day or several days in a row.

Phil P
Phil your observation seems to suggest the Lippert frames are welded by robotics, I do not believe that is the case and even if it were there are many things that contribute to poor welds besides the operator.
Now there is a huge difference in frame "flex" and frame welds breaking. When the field repair was done to "fix" my frame flex there were no broken welds visible, however over extended periods of this flexing that will undoubtedly be the outcome. The design of these frames while trying to lighten the overall unit leaves much to be desired in the material used and proper bracing.
If you think your frame is not flexing then put a camera on the pin box and observe the change in distance between the pin box and the front cover. I used a GoPro camera mounted on the pin box and recorded what was happening, I did not have the camera mounted on the worst part of the road but in my mirror I could see that gap almost disappear at times, that my friend is the frame flexing where the pin box mounts to the frame.

Rich you are not having a good winter, the tanks should be and I expect will be replaced by Keystone and I am sure they will affix the decorative paneling as well. I have decided that I will fix anything that comes apart on my Montana from now on, there will be no spending of $20,000.00 to do so, but I will not go through the aggravation of dealing with a Montana repair shop ever again. The piece that fell off on your unit is the same as mine and it is only held in place with brad nails. It would appear they did not use sufficient on yours or missed the backing that it attaches to. Poor, Poor workmanship and quality. Looks great but what you don't see is the reason some of this stuff falls apart.

Just returned from a 3600 mile journey and had no problems with either the Big wonderful Dodge or the Montana. Overfilled the gray tanks a couple of times and the Black one was burping and no sign of problems there....touch wood....

No matter what brand you own you are going to have problems. hopefully I have resolved most of mine into the foreseeable future.




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Old 04-23-2014, 03:48 AM   #14
richfaa
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We do have and value the Extended warranty. We had the warranty on the 06 3400 and we had many problems. If I remember correctly the total cost to me was 200 or maybe 250.00 in deductibles. We have the GS warranty on this one. I am sure everything will be repaired but we do intend to put another 20 or 30K miles on this 13 over the next 3 or so years and I must have complete confidence in the ability of this thing to do that..Right now I do not.

It appears that the brad nails just pulled out of the attaching board. That valence is right over the axles in the same area that the wall panel pulled out on the trip to Florida. the Mor Ryde Is is on our list of improvements IF we keep this thing.

Oh on the flex in the front end. They have got to flex some. With the full body paint that is easy to see. we can see white gel coat showing through at the seams in the front area .Not much but it is a indication of some flex. Now if we saw 1/4 inch of white we would have a problem.

This 13 was delivered to us June 6th 2012 that is about 22 months and we have not used this as heavy as we did the 06 3400 in that same period. We have put a little over 7K miles on the 13. we are ahead of the curve on problems Vs the 06 3400. We are not pleased.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:45 PM   #15
Phil P
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy


Phil your observation seems to suggest the Lippert frames are welded by robotics,

[/quote]

Hi

I haven’t toured the Lippert facility but several people that have have talked about the automatic welding machine that does all of the welding.

The machine still needs an operator to set it up.

Every close up picture I have seen and the one frame I have personally seen (not on a Keystone) failed because of improper welding.

Phil P
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:05 PM   #16
Neil.M
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Coming home from Arkansas with our 3 month old 2014 High Country last year and stopped by Nevada, MO for a break and found the wood facing from the top of the main slide on the table and floor. Found that over half of the staples used to hold it up had missed the wood frame behind. Got home and put it back up using 16 ga. brads and Gorilla wood glue. No problems since.
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:12 AM   #17
richfaa
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Apparently there is no "standard "for the number of brands installed. There were 21 brands installed some in rows of three, some in rows of 4 and some in rows of 5. Of the 21 brads only 12 of them went into the supporting wood the others were bent over as if the wood was to hard or the brads cheap.
This is what I mean by build quality. The facing is solid wood the supporting wood is solid. How it was installed is the problem. In the trim over the facing some of the brads were also bent over and one missed completely. The materials that go into these Montana's is good stuff. How they are put together is appalling .Not just Keyetone. It applies to all brands.
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:26 AM   #18
steelpony5555
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Hmmm a couple of screws woulda been nice...
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Old 04-25-2014, 05:45 AM   #19
richfaa
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When our closet side panel pulled loose last trip to Florida causing the Ardmore shelves to collapse we replaced the brads with screws. We did have the facing over the main slide in our 06 3400 fall off but the factory fixed that when they reinforced the slide due to a sag in the middle.
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Old 04-25-2014, 12:55 PM   #20
Irlpguy
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Actually I believe there is a method to the madness at Keystone and other manufacturers. The solid wood facings have to be removed to remove a slide in the event one must be removed for whatever reason. I suspect that is a reason they use Brad nails.
I would not be gluing those facial boards on since significant damage would occur trying to take one off in future.

In order to screw them on they would have to use wooden plugs, those plugs are famous for falling out, then you have a gaping hole where the screw head is imbedded in the wood. It is also significantly more labour intensive to do it this way.

I had the right side one fall off my entertainment slide out on my 3402RL and although there were a fair number of Brads they were not all in a position to enter into solid wood behind them, some had missed the wood entirely and one was sticking into the rubber seal. Those that I could not pull out from the back I ground off and made sure my replacement ones were into the wood frame of the push out. After filling the holes you cannot tell where they were unless you look very closely and it is holding fine now.

Although I don't think my facing should fall off on it's own, I don't have nearly the issue with the fact that it did when I consider the issues with the frame that I cannot readily see and which would be a major repair.

It is what I cannot see happening that scares me.


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