Learning about diesels - Montana Owners Club

richfaa · 10-10-2007, 01:48 PM

Now that I have a diesel of my very own I am doing my home work on the care and feeding of same. Although I have been driving diesels for over 8 years that is all I did..drive them and fuel them..other folks took care of them. The Cetane rating(not to be confused with Octane rating) is of interest. The cetane rating indicates how easily the fuel ignites and how fast it will burn. Ford recommended a cetane rating of 45. Most diesel comes at the pumps with a rating of anywhere bewteen 42 and 46..we never know for sure what it really is. Higer speed diesel operate more effectively with higher cetane numbers. There is no advantage of a cetane number of over 55. This leads me to beleive that a cetane booster additive may be advantages and improve performance.I note that most additives indicate a increase in the cetene numbers of 3 to 6.. That soundw like a good thing.... What think you???? Am also learning about a lot of Myths and wives tales about diesel additives..Like adding gas to diesel during cold weather(even I knew that was a dumb thing) and adding used motor oil to diesel fuel..The things folks do////

Mudchief · 10-10-2007, 02:04 PM

Rich, I have been driving diesel pickup truck for years. All I have done is change the fuel filters often and purchase my fuel from places that move a lot of diesel. Never used any additives . The truck I have now loves it when I pull the Montana because that is the lightest thing it pulls.

ols1932 · 10-10-2007, 02:21 PM

Rich,
I don't think you need to know my feelings but I'll give them anyway. A cetane booster can't hurt. Diesel Kleen is something I've used with good results, but mostly I use Lucas Fuel Treatment. Every once in a while I get more energetic and put in some Diesel Kleen. I think you'll get all kinds of input on this one but I think you know what to do.

Orv

Emmel · 10-10-2007, 02:23 PM

Rich, me thinks you do too much research sometimes! Drive it and enjoy the pulling power.
Although I've only had mine 6 years, I've never used any additives so I can't say if there is any benefits or not. I have looked at the price of the additive and figured I could put in another gallon of fuel so I'm not sure what I've gained for the mpg!

pud2 · 10-10-2007, 02:54 PM

Rich
The only reason i was using the additive was to help keep the injectors clean and now with the new ULSD i am using it for the lubrication factor. I have not seen a diff. in fuel mileage but i believe it helps with cleaning and lubbing. I use deisel kleen from wal-mart and it averages about 2 more bucks a tank full but that's peanuts compared to other issues.Just my 2 cents.

daneboy · 10-10-2007, 02:58 PM

Rich,
You must be enjoying the new ride. I use the "Power Service" additive. You can get it at Wally World for $15.30 for 96 onces, it treats 300 gallons. I just figure 2/3 ounces per 10 gallons and put it in every time I fill up. The only reason I'm using the additive is the Ford dealer recomended it at their shop. I Don't know if it really does any good or not. However for what we pay for our TV's $15 per 300 gallons of fuel doesn't depleate the wallet too much. Just my opinion.
Happy Towing,
Jerry

richfaa · 10-10-2007, 02:59 PM

You drivers that have been caring for these things for years have the advantage on me but your input and experience is, as always, valuable to me.You are right Steve . I do research to much but old habits and training die hard. The data indicates increasing the cetene rating will help and I have this thing about data soooo.. I will do some controlled testing and see what the results are.. Besides.. I love to do this kind of stuff.

Bob Pasternak · 10-10-2007, 03:53 PM

Rich; My diesel driving days go back to the late 60s and the only additive I/we've used over the years is anti-icer in the winter. With the two Dodges we've had, a fuel conditioner to keep it from stagnating when we're not on the road since it only gets used as a tow vehicle. And buy fuel from a volume seller.

noneck · 10-10-2007, 04:04 PM

Interesting post...around here the Cetane posted is 40...has been the same even before the change to 15ppm ULSF. I have done NOTHING in regards to additives other than on really cold nights I plug into a timer I have setup to cycle my heater about 2hrs before I come outta the house. I did make a switch this year...untested for cold weather to Rotella T Synthetic, pricey change (oil change cost that is) but looking to see how it does during those cold days of winter here in Southern NY.

Glenn and Lorraine · 10-10-2007, 11:20 PM

Oh Boy, I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers on this reply. So you are being forewarned that this is just "MY OPINION" no more no less.

You all know my feelings on additives. My Duramax's have served me well by doing nothing more than what General Motors advises. I have used NO additives to date and don't plan on using any additives in the future unless the engine manufacturer says different.

As far as research is concerned, the only TRUE research is "UNBIASED/IMPARTIAL/NEUTRAL" research.

Listening to what the additive manufacturer recommends is definitely not "UNBIASED/IMPARTIAL/NEUTRAL". What would anyone expect them to say? "We wouldn't recommend any brand but the one we manufacture as all other brands will gum up or damage your engine" or "Don't use our brand as Brand X is far superior".

Paying any attention to what is posted on all the various forums on this Internet is absolutely useless. As we have NO idea of the true identity of who the individual doing the posting and we also have NO idea of how accurate that individual may be. We also have no idea as to how "UNBIASED/IMPARTIAL/NEUTRAL" their Yea or Nay vote may be. They could very work for the manufacturer of the additive. They may have had a run in with the additive manufacturer. Who really knows?

A Diesel mechanic is a good source of information but again he is not the one who built the engine. He is not the one carrying the warranty on the engine. His recommendation is nothing more than his opinion, possibly an educated one but still just his opinion. Your Dealer's recommendation again is their opinion and NOT necessarily the engine manufacturers recommendation. Of course the dealer is also not necessarily "UNBIASED/IMPARTIAL/NEUTRAL" if, as a Ford dealer he recommends MotorCraft additives, or a GM dealer recommending AC/Delco additives, or a Dodge dealer recommending MoPar additives or any other brand he carries on the parts room shelf.

The "Well I've been using additives in all my diesels for many years and they have never done any harm but I also can't say they have ever done any good" is meaningless to me.

When the engine manufacturer starts saying "I must use" and not "If YOU MUST use an additive than we suggest Brand X". Until that happens I'll put the extra bucks spent on additives to much better use.

Now remember what I said at the top...this is just "MY OPINION" no more no less.

richfaa · 10-11-2007, 12:14 AM

Glenn's post is a good one and make a lot of sense. I note that Ford does recommends the use of a cetene booster in the owners manual, Motor craft of course. This is why I indicated a "controlled test' of my own.The thing about data collection is that it must be valid data and the source as Glenn points out must be closely checked and validated.Data like ..I have never used it and am doing Ok or..I use it all the time and it can't hurt is, as Glenn, noted meaningless..same as ..I have been pulling xxxx lbs with my xxx truck and never had a problem..We will do our testing and share our findings for whatever they are worth..

Ozz · 10-11-2007, 01:32 AM

Maybe we can watch an episode of Mythbusters and see this one on there...

Jim Jarvis · 10-11-2007, 01:39 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Glenn's post is a good one and make a lot of sense. I note that Ford does recommends the use of a cetene booster in the owners manual, Motor craft of course. This is why I indicated a "controlled test' of my own.The thing about data collection is that it must be valid data and the source as Glenn points out must be closely checked and validated.Data like ..I have never used it and am doing Ok or..I use it all the time and it can't hurt is, as Glenn, noted meaningless..same as ..I have been pulling xxxx lbs with my xxx truck and never had a problem..We will do our testing and share our findings for whatever they are worth..

I agree, Glenn's post was timely and a good post. Rich, are you sure Ford recommends a cetene booster? I do not have my manual in front of me as the truck is out of commission in another part of the province however my memory, which is very bad, seems to recall advising the use of a Ford product if you want to use a booster. I -think- they said you do not need one though. Sorry if I am mistaken. If Ford is recommending this then I will have to consider that option.

Mudchief · 10-11-2007, 02:24 AM

This is something to think about. Most people do all this stuff to take care of the engine but usually trade the unit off before they see any value if any, of what they have done. So like Glenn said use that money on something else.

dsprik · 10-11-2007, 02:46 AM

Can't imagine additives hurting anything. There is such a thing in the mfr/corporate world as "law suit". If I was the mfr of a product, I would make darn sure that I marketed absolutely nothing to have a auto/truck mfr start pointing a finger at me for multiple failures in their product. Too many hungry attorneys out there.

So at the least, there is probably a neutral effect from these products - or they are very short lived products. I use Diesel Kleen (just bought a bottle last night at Wally World) very occasionally. I do use the full recommended strength per tank, though. Probably about every 10 fill ups or so...

mgdg · 10-11-2007, 03:41 AM

Rich
I tried the Cetane boost from Flying J the first time I went to Florida with the RV. No difference whatsoever in mpg. Glenn is right if the engine manufacturer(Cummins/Chrysler in my case)doesn`t say the engine needs it then why waste money on it. Just ordered a New 2008 Dodge Megacab 4x4 6.7 ctd with 6 speed auto, I won`t get it until January. I`m anxious to see what Chrysler recommends if any additives at all.

Glenn and Lorraine · 10-11-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Can't imagine additives hurting anything. There is such a thing in the mfr/corporate world as "law suit". If I was the mfr of a product, I would make darn sure that I marketed absolutely nothing to have a auto/truck mfr start pointing a finger at me for multiple failures in their product. Too many hungry attorneys out there.

So at the least, there is probably a neutral effect from these products - or they are very short lived products. I use Diesel Kleen (just bought a bottle last night at Wally World) very occasionally. I do use the full recommended strength per tank, though. Probably about every 10 fill ups or so...

Dave, I don't think anyone said these additives would do any harm but I personally don't think they do any good either. At least it hasn't been proved they are beneficial. So my question is why waste the money on something unproven or unneeded?

PowellsMonty · 10-11-2007, 06:37 AM

I also belive I saw a recommendation in the CD that came with my truck, but not sure. I am sure that I bought 3 bottles of it(motorcraft) from the Ford store last week when I took delivery. Was recommended by their service/parts dept. Also said it would give you a tad bit better milage. I don't believe that but maybe. I tried an additive in my 7.3 before and didn't notice any change in anything.

Montana Sky · 10-11-2007, 06:46 AM

Rich,
As you know, I run the GM diesel fuel conditioner in my truck.

It does the following:
1. Removes fuel system deposits
2. Increases fuel lubricity
3. Increases fuel cetane
4. Improves cold flow properties

Also noted on the bottle it says: "This diesel fuel additive complies with the federal low sulfur content requirements for use in diesel motor vehicles and non-road engines."

As you also know, I drive the same 65 miles to and from my seasonal lake place every day for six months a year. I have done extensive comparison with the new ULSD fuel covering the same road at the same speed. I have found that for my truck, when I run the GM diesel fuel conditioner, I average 22/23 mpg. When not running the conditioner I averaged out at 18/19 mpg. By the time I factor in the cost of the conditioner, I usually save roughly $7 to $8 per tank. I figured that by the following... 22 (mpg) x 24 (gal) = 528 miles per tank. 18 (mpg) x 24 (gal) = 432 miles per tank. Take 528-432=96. 96 (miles) / 22 (mpg) = 4.3 (gal). 4.3 (gal) x $3.39 (current price per gallon) = $14.57 Take $14.57 - $6.25 (cost per bottle of GM conditioner) = $8.32 (savings).

While I like the extra savings of running the diesel conditioner, that is not the primary reason I run it. I am using it to help protect the fuel system as long as possible. Plus, I get to leave the extra $8 in the bank to earn interest for when the time comes to replace the injectors on my truck. Unless I win the lotto, I am doubtful I will be buying that new dually any time in the next 4 to 5 years.

See disclaimer below...

richfaa · 10-11-2007, 07:28 AM

Check page 32 of the 08 6.4L diesel Owners manual supplement. Not sure if that can be considered a recommendation or not but they do approve the use of PM-17-A (U.S)and Pm-17-B (Canada) or equivalent. Montana Sky.I like your rational.I would have to see data that tells me that increasing the Cetene rating will NOT increase MPG????(other than over 55)

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