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Old 02-23-2016, 05:07 PM   #1
DAR
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Short in Ceiling - How are the panels attached

[img][/img]As is in my Sig. I have a 2012 3750 fl. Have had intermittent issues with the lights in the living room and the bedroom. I purchased new switches sometime ago and then they started working normal after I had changed just one of the fixtures to an LED to test what type bulbs we wanted. So I was thinking having 4 fixtures was to much load on the switch, and since the seemed to be working i did not replace the switches. Awhile back the lights in the bedroom quit working altogether, it is winter and we have not been staying in the Monty so the switch replacement was not a priority. This week the snow is melting and spring is in the air and I decide to do some maintenance and the bedroom switch was on my list. I replaced the switch and no lights. Checked the fuse and it is good,checked for power at the switch 12 volts there.I pulled the light fixture from the ceiling to see if there is anything going on with the connections. Pulled the one right above the switch and it all looks good and probably 18" of extra wire came out with it. Moved to my left to the light over the bed closest to the bathroom wall and it just barely comes off the ceiling, no extra wire, gently tugged and feels like the wires are stuck/pinched/stapled/screwed/ nailed in the ceiling. I ran out of time to continue that day. Next day went in inside and it smells like plastic burning turned the breaker off at the S&B panel I din't have time to do anymore that day and figured it would be good. Next day the smell is stronger and then it dawns on me those are 12 volt wire I need to turn off the cut off switch. So next day I finally get time to investigate.I Figure that the wires must be loose in the connections on the distribution panel since I had never checked them. When I opened the cover part of the plastic is melted below the bedroom fuse.



[img][/img]

After I took off the cover I discover that the that whole area around that fuse is burned and melted.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

And another one is also burned a bit in the middle of that bank also.

[img][/img]

Now I am pretty convinced that something is going on in the ceiling with the wires. Has anybody removed there ceiling panels to do repairs??? are the stapled to the metal trusses? trying to find out the best way to track down this problem. Does anyone have any Ideas before I start removing my ceiling to get to those wires. Thanks for any Ideas or advice.
 
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:47 PM   #2
MARK A
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I would start by testing wires for continuity. Also check for conductivity to the frame, if there is a fault, you should have voltage to ground. Your load center is certainly toast.

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Old 02-23-2016, 07:04 PM   #3
DAR
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by MARK A

I would start by testing wires for continuity. Also check for conductivity to the frame, if there is a fault, you should have voltage to ground. Your load center is certainly toast.

Mark
should I turn power back on to test the frame Don't really want to do that if I don't have to.

Toast is for sure tried to find a new load center but can only buy the converter separate, looks like I will have to buy the whole unit
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:31 AM   #4
BB_TX
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A short in wiring any where should blow a fuse, not melt your fuse panel. My guess is the problem was/is in the fuse panel. Possibly loose and/or bad connections creating heat there. A year or so after purchasing ours I checked my fuse panel and breaker panel and found multiple loose connections in both the 12 vdc and the 120 vac connections.

The equation for power in watts is the current squared times the resistance the current is flowing thru. If you had 10 amps flowing thru even only half an ohm of resistance in a bad connection, that would be 10 squared times .5 = 50 watts. Think how hot a 50 watt light bulb would get.

I probably need to check mine again as it has been a few years.
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:31 AM   #5
phillyg
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Your lighting problem MAY be related to the burned areas in the panel, particularly if those lights are on circuits 9 and/or 15-18. However, my experience has been that type of burning in the panel results from loose connections therein. The obvious first step is to replace/rewire the panel and then go after the lights if they're still a problem. I'm of the opinion that one should put a screwdriver to their accessible connections on a yearly basis.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:19 AM   #6
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I would would vote for loose wires on your panel not in your ceiling.
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:06 AM   #7
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Like most all of the previous responses ... since the load center has to be replaced anyways, replace it and go from there. If there is an issue above the ceiling you could ohm out the wires prior to hooking them back to the new load center. The ceiling panels are stapled to the aluminum roof trusses and you will be very lucky to get one down without cosmetic damage to the panel(s).
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:14 PM   #8
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As a fire investigator by profession I would strongly consider loose connections resulting in heating of the circuit as earlier described. A fault in the circuit resulting in a ground, or an overload on the circuit should have resulted in a tripped or blown fuse. Good luck!!
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:09 PM   #9
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Great advice. Reflects past experience on our end
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:25 PM   #10
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I am very new to the Montana, but I would hope there is a torque rating. Does anyone know ?
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:53 PM   #11
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What I find interesting is that the center of the major burn area looks like there was no connection or fuse (17/18?), although 16 is also fried as is 15 to a lesser amount. The other burn at 9 might indicate something shorting out the two areas, possibly on the back side of the load center. Don't know how much a new one costs, but you might check some of the RV salvage places for a used one. They don't usually go bad or even get damaged in a wreck. I'd think you could probably find the same year, make and model, which would make it easier to replace.
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:29 PM   #12
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Not sure if it is just my imagination but it appears to me that fuse #9 which is burnt, is jumpered to fuse #13. It is hard to tell what color wire comes off of #9 if there is another besides the jumper (there is a yellow one in the vicinity), and from the pictures it appears there is no wire from #13 that feeds any circuits either.

I would be wondering what load if any was on #9 and #13 to cause #9 to have overheated. I would guess the problem is with loose connections but what circuits are serviced by the burnt connections.

A short to ground as in a staple or such on any of those service wires should cause the fuse to blow, however a loose connection with load on it can greatly overheat and cause what appears to have happened in your fuse panel.

Since at a very minimum the 12V fuse panel must be replaced, it it were me I would label each wire as to it's corresponding fuse location and remove the 12V panel, I would then take a fused (15 amp) wire with alligator clips on it and feed all of the affected wires individually with 12V, if one is shorted it will immediately blow the fuse in your supply wire. This will tell you right away if the problem in the first place is downstream from the panel .

Doing this to all the wires individually will also tell you exactly what they are feeding, provided of course you have all 12V light switches on and have someone identify which lights come on.

Not a fun project or problem but it sure could have been a whole lot worse. Good luck with the repair.


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Old 02-24-2016, 04:23 PM   #13
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Thanks for all the responses. I will replace the converter/ distribution panel and then start checking for the lighting issues and yes I believe #9 is the living room lights and I know that #15 I think it was is for the bedroom.

I find it odd that there was not any issue with the panel that I was aware of until I started messing with the bedroom lights. Thinking about it now it is very possible that the light switch was left on and that would have allowed the power to flow through a loose connection to the bedroom. I know it was not burned or melted when I was checking the fuses, however there may have been some heating of the connection that I was not aware of behind the panel on the connections.

When I pulled the cover off I checked all the other connections and they were all tight. So the 2 that showed the signs of heat would have been the only ones that were loose. Wish I had not procrastinated about checking them now, since I have known I should check them for least 3 years now when I first learned about the problem on the MOC.

I will repost when I get everything fixed or if I need more ideas.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by WaltBennett

What I find interesting is that the center of the major burn area looks like there was no connection or fuse (17/18?), although 16 is also fried as is 15 to a lesser amount. The other burn at 9 might indicate something shorting out the two areas, possibly on the back side of the load center. Don't know how much a new one costs, but you might check some of the RV salvage places for a used one. They don't usually go bad or even get damaged in a wreck. I'd think you could probably find the same year, make and model, which would make it easier to replace.
DW and I had just talked about RV Salvage this afternoon glad to know they are normally intact and should be readily available.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:42 PM   #15
DAR
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Not sure if it is just my imagination but it appears to me that fuse #9 which is burnt, is jumpered to fuse #13. It is hard to tell what color wire comes off of #9 if there is another besides the jumper (there is a yellow one in the vicinity), and from the pictures it appears there is no wire from #13 that feeds any circuits either.

I would be wondering what load if any was on #9 and #13 to cause #9 to have overheated. I would guess the problem is with loose connections but what circuits are serviced by the burnt connections.

A short to ground as in a staple or such on any of those service wires should cause the fuse to blow, however a loose connection with load on it can greatly overheat and cause what appears to have happened in your fuse panel.

Since at a very minimum the 12V fuse panel must be replaced, it it were me I would label each wire as to it's corresponding fuse location and remove the 12V panel, I would then take a fused (15 amp) wire with alligator clips on it and feed all of the affected wires individually with 12V, if one is shorted it will immediately blow the fuse in your supply wire. This will tell you right away if the problem in the first place is downstream from the panel .

Doing this to all the wires individually will also tell you exactly what they are feeding, provided of course you have all 12V light switches on and have someone identify which lights come on.

Not a fun project or problem but it sure could have been a whole lot worse. Good luck with the repair.


I really like the idea of the fused wire I think I might have a couple floating around in my box of wire connectors. I will definatly be marking all the wires to no way this brain could even think about putting them back by memory.
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Old 02-25-2016, 02:19 AM   #16
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Just be thankful that was the only damage. It does appear there was an open fire there for at least short time.
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Old 02-25-2016, 04:56 PM   #17
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I removed the converter today and decided to recheck the tightness of the Lugs and low and behold every one on the 12 v panel was loose by a 1/4 to full turn of the ones that had not burned. I guess I had only checked the 110 wires the other day.

Now to find a replacement, Have one surplus outfit looking and will continue to see what I can find online.
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Old 02-25-2016, 04:57 PM   #18
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quote:Originally posted by BB_TX

Just be thankful that was the only damage. It does appear there was an open fire there for at least short time.
Yes it was hot enough that the plastic melted and dripped onto the 12 volt ground wire.
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:27 PM   #19
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I would call Progressive Dynamics direct, at (269) 781-4241, and explain that you have a Model PD4590 that has had the 12 volt section burnt probably due to loose connections, and see if they can ship you the necessary parts, less the converter that you don't need. You may actually just need the new 12 volt circuit board that is damaged.
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Old 02-25-2016, 07:42 PM   #20
DAR
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quote:Originally posted by rohrmann

I would call Progressive Dynamics direct, at (269) 781-4241, and explain that you have a Model PD4590 that has had the 12 volt section burnt probably due to loose connections, and see if they can ship you the necessary parts, less the converter that you don't need. You may actually just need the new 12 volt circuit board that is damaged.
That is a very good Idea will try that tomorrow.
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