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Old 03-04-2011, 02:24 PM   #21
Dui
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Just checked out the pics of my 2011 3580 frame. The frame also has the angles welded to the I-Beam web above the MoreRide U bracket. The pics posted above with the tanks being supported by the straps...does anyone know if this is done on all new Montana's? I have read that there has been issues with the tanks failing without the supports.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:52 AM   #22
pbahlin
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Update:

I brought the rig to LazyDays in Florida and had their warranty adjuster go over the problem. It's worse than I thought originally. Seems both sides are not plumb anymore and also the rubber in the equalizers is shot. The techs say this is from the unusual twist being applied to the rubber due to the bent boxes. It's all sort of shredded on the surface (should be smooth as a baby bottom).

So the fix is to replace both equalizers and add the Moryde cross brace (I think this is basically the X-factor). Lazydays is also going to add gussets to the I beam from flange to web on both sides of the beams.

The warranty authorization status is unknown at present.

The bummer is that once you start looking at this design it is so obviously deficient it makes your eyes bleed. The equalizer box is about 6 inches wide and is being welded onto a 3" flange. It is obvious that an I beam is not intended to be subjected to twisting forces on its flange. Worse, the forces applied by the springs are about 8" inches below this weld so the springs have a significant torque advantage on the flange.

My investigations have uncovered a history of attempted reinforcements by Keystone/Moryde/Lippert. First there was the vertical angles welded to the I-beam web ( my rig). Then the next year it seams there was the little box beam (about 3/4 square) welded in the corner above the box. Then there was a plate welded as a gusset from flange to web above the box. Finally there is the X-factor ???option???.

Why would one offer an option to 'strengthen' a good design. Is it to help the RVer who is taking his rig four wheeling? Is it offered to folks who will be driving on truck routes? Or is it offered to take the rig up to the specification it should have been meeting all along?

I think it's the latter myself! My guess is that; a few tight back ins, on a paved surface with good tires, with your brand new high tech keystone radiused front cap, made to facilitate tight turns, is all it takes to wipe out the sexy Moryde upgrade. For that matter, having your rig jockeyed around a few 90 degree turns at your friendly service center with the cool front mounted socket on the dealer tractor, is an even better way to get folks to sign up for the X-factor.

Makes you go hmmmmmmm.

The tech tells me that he's seen some of these so bad that they had fatigued the I-beam to failure and he had to weld steel plate the length of the beam to get the customer out of the shop.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:22 PM   #23
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Good recap of the problem. Angers me when we have to redesign and 'buttress' the frame because they seem to be learning as they go.
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by gcrocket

I have been concerned about the suspension on my rig so I have added the Dexter EZ-Flex, wet bolts, 5th Airborne pinbox and my version of the Lippert frame braces shown in the picture. Holding tank straps are shown also. 2000 to add the morryde xfactor? I'll have to tell the DW so she'll appreciate my efforts more
http://tinyurl.com/6dt3huz
George,

Where did you get $2,000 to add Mor/ryde Xfactor? Tweety's has it for $139.

http://tweetys.com/morryde-xfactor.aspx


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Old 04-05-2011, 02:53 PM   #25
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Paul,

Last time I torqued the bolts I thought the box was bent to one side a little, but figure it was normal. We haven't been over any bad roads, but maybe the backing into the drive way is the cause.

Will be picking the Monty up tomorrow for a Thursday to Sunday trip about 1 hour South of here. I guess I need to add Xfactor to my to do list.

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Old 04-05-2011, 03:49 PM   #26
stiles watson
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Pbahlin, I agree with your assessment. This was built more flimsily than it should have been. Don't know if it was Keystone's or Mor/ryde's decision, but they are both responsible as far as I am concerned.

By 2008 Big Sky has the same setup. I have been "walking on egg shells" every trip since I had to replace the rubber spring. I remember another 2008 Big Sky had the "big twist" on an Alaskan trip and that may have been where the X-factor was born.

I would like to know the thickness of the flanges and the size of the square tubing. Those pictures got me to thinking whether I might weld the mod for myself. I have access to materials here.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #27
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I used the heaviest square tube in the size I wanted, it won't go anywhere. (I'm waiting until i get all my wet-bolts and springs installed)
I think that the U-tube that they use is probably engineered to be strong enough to do the job, I noticed they used a corner pc. to spread the support.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:54 PM   #28
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Don't others think it odd, that this exact fix was done to our rig as part of a Keystone-Montana recall?? The total cost to us was $0. How can the fix be a recall on one rig and a purchased option on another???? Although obviously I am thankful that our fix was done for free, I believe if I knew what I now know, that there would be some calls being placed to dealer, Keystone, and anyone else brave enough to listen. Something is awry here folks!!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:05 AM   #29
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Bingo, good post.
OK, it's someone else's turn to rattle the cages in Goshen. We need answers!!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:31 AM   #30
pbahlin
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My service advisor at LazyDays mentioned a recall when I first described the problem to him. After checking out his recollection he discovered there was a recall for this but not on my model. Now I could see how there could be model differences for recalls on some things but not on this.

My Big Sky must be one of the heaviest units they make so if any rig is going to have high stress you would think it would be the heaviest ones, eh? Since I discovered this issue I've been looking at every Moryde install I can find and so far I've found 4 different ways that this has been 'reinforced'.

If you actually measure where the extra beef has been added the choices are actually infinite. It seems they don't use rulers when they weld on the beef. On my unit the left side is even radically different than the right side.

Perhaps the leprechaun who wired all my speakers incorrectly, welds gussets in the extra time he has available from being such a good surround sound installer.
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:58 PM   #31
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bncinwv

Don't others think it odd, that this exact fix was done to our rig as part of a Keystone-Montana recall?? The total cost to us was $0. How can the fix be a recall on one rig and a purchased option on another???? Although obviously I am thankful that our fix was done for free, I believe if I knew what I now know, that there would be some calls being placed to dealer, Keystone, and anyone else brave enough to listen. Something is awry here folks!!!
Bingo
Bingo,

When the did the recall, did they install 1, 2, or 3 bars? Was it the Mor/ryde X-Factor, or something else. I dread going to the dealer (CW in Statesville), seems like the unit is up there weeks at time.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:25 AM   #32
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John,
It was a single X-factor bar (I believe, based on others photos that were provided) on the center spring hanger. I thought from looking at the X-factor that it was a u-tube. The bar that they put on mine is a full square tube.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:14 AM   #33
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After looking at all the different X-factor fixes they only go halfway to stop the sideways movement. IMO there should be diagonal bracing running up on each side to the middle of the camper. Support the bracing with a horizontal member running side to side of the frame I beams. Bingo your the engineer of our group whats your thoughts?
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:42 AM   #34
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Dennis, I am not a structural engineer, my expertise revolves around surface mining and earthwork. You asked so I will still provide my thoughts. My opinion of the flaw in the original design of the Mor-Ryde is that it simply was not stiff enough for the lateral forces that turns, backing, etc. apply to the vertical hangers. The fix they are providing provides additional vertical support via the thickness of the bolted-on flange as well as boxing the hangers together with the horizontal tube to essentially make the entire structure act as as one instead of two independent hangers. Time and use will tell if this fix is sufficient, but my gut feeling after seeing the horizontal bar is that it should work. At present, the part of the fix that I will be paying close attention to is the torque of the eight bolts that attach the horizontal flanged square tube to the spring hangers. In essence these eight bolts are providing a box frame (very strong from an engineering viewpoint) but the strength of the frame is totally dependent upon the attachment to the hangers. The attachment is critical!!! Welding would have been preferred by far. With regard to the diagonal bracing, my concern would be that any sideways torque or flex would be point loaded wherever the braces were attached to the frame. Point loading on the frames would introduce a very strong possibility of bending since I am sure they are not designed for it. I do think that a combination of both approaches as you suggested would indeed be stronger, if all of the pieces (horizontal, diagonal, and vertical) were attached together preferably by welds not bolts. Based on everything that I have seen so far on the forum, the best solution is the one that Richfaa took, the independent suspension system. If I start to see any movement at all in the new fix, that will probably be my fix as well. All of the above is posted as my opinion only and should not be taken as engineering advice and is not intended as such (Have to put that disclaimer in).
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:12 AM   #35
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Bingo,

If you get a chance, please post picture or two of the Fix.

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Old 04-07-2011, 05:56 AM   #36
bncinwv
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John, they are on this thread:

Photo Thread

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Old 04-07-2011, 06:25 AM   #37
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Some frames have a cross member right at the center point of the two axles. There is one fix I've seen in here that involved diagonal plates that took advantage of this cross member (welded). I think this is the best of all possible solutions.

My Big Sky doesn't have a cross member there so this wouldn't work for me. For obvious reasons, to Moryde at least, a fix that is 'universal' can't depend on that cross member so, da-da X-factor is born. It essentially forms a rectangle (for most folks) with one side being the x-factor, two sides being your equalizer box, and the fourth side being your flooring. Not the best.

I'm an engineer (electrical) but did sleep at many Holiday Inns and participated in many, many, courses of physics. If I was designing a 16,000 # dual axle trailer, it would have a cross member at each spring attachment with x bracing crossing the rectangles formed by the cross members. It would have diagonal gusset plates welded to the cross members and extending down to the lowest point of each hanger. If I was feeling lucky I'd also weld gussets from flange to web on both sides of the eye beams, over the hanger attachment points.

This would ensure no movement of hangers, ever. Of course the marketeers for my frame would string me up out by the dumpster and feed me to the alligators after I had sufficiently cured.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:32 AM   #38
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One more thing. The X-Factor, as shown in the Moryde literature is 'adjustable' to fit 'any frame'. What this means is that each crossing support is actually two bars that are put together with slotted holes at the centers. I've never seen one in person so I can't testify as to whether this is actually what they deliver.

If it is what they deliver, this is another victory of marketing over function, isn't it? Do you really want your frame reinforced with slotted holes? I just crawled out from under my truck and couldn't find any slotted holes in my suspension. Of course it's a Dodge. How about those Fords and GMs? Any slotted holes out there? How about a Freightliner?
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:38 AM   #39
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Can't argue with that, more strengthening measures (regardless of the type) would only help. I didn't see any slotted holes in the fix for our rig, but I did not crawl under the rear to look at it from that angle either. I do know that ours on the rig, not the truck, is one piece in terms of the tubular steel. The mystery deepens.........
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:42 AM   #40
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I really like the X-factor, but.. You always like the statement, then the but. I agree about the slots and bolts, I also have reservations about the 4 small bolts and nuts doing double duty. They are re-using the original bolts and nuts for another load.
Now, I trust their engineering and would guess that the bolts are adequate for the X-factor job. I think the load is being transferred to the other hanging bracket, maybe canceling the load somewhat in a tight turn.
As light duty as they seem, it must not take much to bolster the supports.
I am not happy with the slots and adjustable aspect, but that is a situation of producing one product for many models.
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