It's not just Keystone... - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

richfaa · 11-27-2005, 11:20 AM

Some of my post seem to have disappeared...Don't know how that happened..I had posed the following question.Why is it that a American worker building Honda's at the Marysville ,Ohio Honda plant can turn out a product of reasonably high quality yet a American worker working in a RV plant in Elkhart/Goshen cannot..Something to think about....

Wordsmith · 11-27-2005, 01:52 PM

Guys, I would suggest to you that it is not just the RV or any other industry that suffers from this. We had problems with our house after we moved in and trying to get the builder to fix them was like whistling in the wind. Only after aggravating him did anything happen and even then not perfectly. Marsha’s Durango has a decided stutter at low speeads, but the Dodge dealership swears there is nothing wrong. Marsha’s sister had to take her GMC Yukon back to the dealership three times to get it fixed, and that is the second one for her. They could NEVER fix her Suburban’s leak.

Teaching in a high school, I can only tell you that I am not optimistic that the situation will improve. Generation X is exhibiting an appalling lack of work ethic. Oh, don’t misunderstand me, they want all of the good things in life, but they don’t want to work for them. From my soap box, it is a deterioration of the work ethic that we are seeing. In an industry where there are no uniform checks, such as the RV industry, the results are just more obvious.

Parrothead · 11-27-2005, 03:00 PM

JD
Having worked in school districts for twenty-five years, I totally agree with you. Plus by the end of my career I was hiring those 20 somethings and for the most part they don't want to work. My youngest daughter is 31 and many times she has been told she has an exceptional work ethic for her age. She tells them she got from her Mom who got it from her Grandfather. We have to keep trying with the younger generation - maybe we will get through.
Happy trails.....................

dsprik · 11-27-2005, 06:15 PM

Since all the teachers are chiming in here, I'll take a shot.

This is a WAY different type of work ethic with this new generation. There are different technologies that make it so one doesn't have to "sweat" so much to accomplish tasks (speaking as a HS Science Teacher), but they definitely have to use their brains alot more. Ever try to match wits with a ninth grader as they run a diagnostics on your "teacher" computer on your desk, find the problem, then fix it... seemingly without even breaking a sweat??? They may rebel severely at working 8 hrs on a loading dock, but they think nothing of spending 18 to 20 hrs a day writing a program to perform a certain task that they deem important. And then there's computer hackers. While this is definitely leaning into a moral gray area, how many of you think the average age of hackers is over 50? 40? 30? Maybe not even over 25, or even 21??? Do these youngsters have a "poor" work ethic? I think they have a tremendous (misdirected) work ethic.

What I'm trying to say is that there will be a different type of work ethic that we did not define (but the current world technologies WILL define "work", and always has.) It's not necessarily bad... just something we're not used to. Let me also say (before someone jumps on this) that the rise of "hackers" does not really tip the scales of this generation's good vs bad ratios compared to any of the past generations. (Now, think about this before you speak...)

It's also very possible, if you think about it, that EVERY generation (maybe since Adam & Eve) has probably lamented about the new generation's work ethic. Really... didn't you think that your parents' or grandparents' stories about "walking both ways uphill to school in a snowstorm" was FUNNY and ridiculous??? You know... we joke about that, but I believe they were serious! That was their stab at OUR generation's work ethic, and how lazy they thought WE were getting. We made it OK (arguably). I wonder what this generation's joke is about US!

Sometimes change is good. Hard to understand, and then try to adjust to... but good.

The problem here MAY be that we are trying to get this new generation to adapt to OUR work standards in the RV (and US auto) manufacturing industry??? Ever try to put a round peg in a square hole... or was that a square peg in a round hole???

One more thing... the seeming lack of respect seems to be growing... or so we as teachers are complaining about. Think, though... weren't teachers around the turn of the last century (~1900) complaining about the alarming increase in lack of respect by students? Everything's relative. Maybe this is too? Not that I'm condoning disrespect in a younger generation at all... I get fired up in a hurry over this... but so did my Dad when I acted up...

Just food for thought... maybe a "late night snack"?

BTW, all of this is JMHO!

Parrothead · 11-27-2005, 07:40 PM

Dave,
I totally respectively disagree with you. I was asking this "new" generation to work on computers and their programs. All they were interested in was the paycheck and the benefits. If I got 4 hours of work in an 8 hour day I was lucky.
Happy trails.....................

Wrenchtraveller · 11-28-2005, 02:10 AM

I think the world has always had the hard workers and the slack asses and it always will.
There is a good article out there called the 30-70 principle and in it they prove that 30% of the people do 70% of the work in most companies. They are talking management positions and workers all down the line. I get to work with a lot of young people in my line of work and I don't think the work ethic is any different now than it was when I started working full time back in 1967.

You have your good workers, your average workers, the people that do nothing & your ass kissers. Nothing has changed and the world will keep on churning, just like it always has.

richfaa · 11-28-2005, 02:33 AM

Interesting observations from the Teachers who would be the best qualified to know. I tend to agree more with dsprik on his observations.Work ethic is what it's all about. My Fathers best advise to me was you have two choices you can work with your back or you can work with your mind. That led me into the technical field and I always held my hands up , with pride, to show that I had not a single callous, I worked with my mind.Physical labor was not my thing...A completely different work ethic than my Father. The work standards of our Fathers and to a large part ours are outmoded and obsolete..we need to let it change. The the American organizational work ethic is why the American worker in Elkhart cannot build a high quality Rv but the American worker building Honda's In Marysville ohio under the Japanese organizational work ethic can.. Another quote from one of my hero's Dwight D Eisenhower " We must bring about change by evolution, the alternative is revolution.

Wrenchtraveller · 11-28-2005, 02:49 AM

While on the subject of RV quality, here is a what happened to me back in 1987. I bought a brand new 5th wheel and I paid premium price for it because it was reputed to be a very good make.
It was a Canadian brand and I am a Canadian but ever since this experience I have bought only US made 5th wheels and I have had much better luck with the US models. The brand I had so much trouble with is still made today and I believe they make a much better product so I don't want to tarnish their reputation by giving the brandname. Anyway this was a fairly new type of construction where they bonded aluminum to a foam block insulation to the wood panel on the inside. I don't think they do much of this anymore. Anyway, when mine was just over a year old it started de laminating very badly. I was down in Reno and the unit was prewired for an A/C unit so I put one on. The next morning the roof had deflected over 2 inches and the inside plate of the A/C unit was only touching the ceiling in the centre. We made it home to Vancouver Island, I phoned the dealer many times, was promised a factory rep was going to look at it. He never did and I fixed it myself by getting a 4 inch aluminum angle and strapping it across the top.On the inside I got aluminum channel and clamped them together to pull the roof up. I was able to get a plasic trim that snapped over the channel and hide it and it looked very proffessional. We used the rig another year and then the walls started de laminating and the only thing holding the skin on was the windows. I phoned the factory, threatened them with a law suit. They told me to bring the unit back to the factory in the BC interior and they would fix it for cost. I did that, had to stay in a Motel for 3 days, the factory was repairing many rigs like mine. I was handed a 2000 dollar bill by a rude factory manager, Then he told me how lucky I was that I did not buy American junk, ( can you believe that ) . No mention was ever made of the roof repair I had done. On the way home I traded that piece of crap in on a new 1990 Kit Companion 5th wheel.
It was a cheap unit but it gave me 5 years of good reliable service.

Wrenchtraveller · 11-28-2005, 02:57 AM

Richfaa, I see you have an 05 F350 V10. I also have one and I love it. I ordered it from the factory after having bad luck with an 04 F350 6.0 diesel.

Your comments on teacher's is interesting. My daughter is in her 3rd year of University towards becoming a teacher and I have the highest respect for Teachers but they are not the people that get to work with the grads after they leave school. Many people that don't do well in the school system do very well in the work world and I see that all the time.

richfaa · 11-28-2005, 04:00 AM

Well the V-10 will pull anything Montana has and how we use a truck did not warrant a diesel and, just my personal view, we did not care for the 6.0PSD.If diesel fuel stays the way it is I think a lot of folks will be going back to gas. The 07 models will tell the tale////

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller

Richfaa, I see you have an 05 F350 V10. I also have one and I love it. I ordered it from the factory after having bad luck with an 04 F350 6.0 diesel.

Your comments on teacher's is interesting. My daughter is in her 3rd year of University towards becoming a teacher and I have the highest respect for Teachers but they are not the people that get to work with the grads after they leave school. Many people that don't do well in the school system do very well in the work world and I see that all the time.

dsprik · 11-28-2005, 01:50 PM

Sue, I totally understand where you are coming from. I too have experienced similar frustrating situations, that makes one think, "Oh my gosh! We are REALLY in trouble!". However, I just can't help from wondering (and maybe I'm wrong) if any in our parents generation had ever made the exact same observation about our generation. Surely they would have had no complaints over some of our "Woodstock" activities (now there was a great work ethic), or that way of thinking, that seemed more than a little prevalent during the 60's.

No concern over a deteriorating social situation with that new generation.

I gotta tell ya, Sue, this is not a "long held" position that I have by any means. I just started thinking about this last night, while on this thread, and my mind started wandering (Surprise!). Just my thoughts... Wouldn't be the first time if my line of thinking is thought to be just a LITTLE off center.

Rich, I might want to add that the real unsung heroes of the school system is the Support Personnel: bus drivers, aides, custodial staff. I have seen many times where students developed a trust relationship with the support personnel to where they would go to them with their problems, and then the aide, driver, custodian would take the time to try to help and give advice to these students. The caring attitude exhibited is exceptional. They are like second parents (sometimes the ONLY parental advice). VERY underpaid for their positive role in so many children's lives. Everyone talks about the teachers' elevated role in our society. While I do defend the teachers role in children's lives, little, if anything, is said about the lowly paid support personnel, without which the school could not function. These people have a great positive effect, also, on students.

dsprik · 11-28-2005, 02:46 PM

Sue, I just went back and read one of your posts here and I just to say that you have really made a great point on passing work ethic down to the next generation. This is NOT something anyone is born with. It MUST be a learned trait... from parents and the peer group they associate with. Good job, Sue! We could sure use a lot more parents (and grandparents) like you.

Parrothead · 11-28-2005, 03:02 PM

Thank you Dave. I agree that it is the parents responsibility. And I have to say all of my girls have it but the three older ones are in a different generation (16 year gap) that the younger one. Not only did they learn from me but other members in my family (grandparents, uncles, aunts. etc.) also set this example. So it probably goes back even one more generation to their great-grandparents, all who were hard workers.
Happy trails..........................

CmdrDewey · 11-28-2005, 03:24 PM

[quote]Originally posted by richfaa

Well the V-10 will pull anything Montana has and how we use a truck did not warrant a diesel and, just my personal view, we did not care for the 6.0PSD.If diesel fuel stays the way it is I think a lot of folks will be going back to gas. The 07 models will tell the tale////

I never can understand that comment. Gasoline in my area is now going for $2.00 and diesel is $2.49. In the three years and 100,000 miles I have owned my diesel, diesel fuel has been more than gas twice for about a month or two each time. I get 11/mph hauling with diesel and I got 8 with gas. That trailer was shorter and a whole lot lighter. My present cost per mile is $.2266 per mile and with gas it would be $.25. When I figure in the extra costs for oil and general maintenance it figures out to about a wash and that is at current prices. I expect diesel to again go below gas although maybe not until April this year. It will cost me about $360 in fuel to go to FL this winter and last year it was $218. I'm sorry but $284 per year is not going to change my plans one bit. By the way, my truck is worth about $4,000 more than an indentical gas truck which means the additional cost of diesel washes out in the end as well. All of the above is of course JMHO.

Y

Wordsmith · 11-29-2005, 12:29 PM

I missed my fellow educators’ comments yesterday. Let me add a few points here.

First, everyone is absolutely spot on when they say that work ethic is the responsibility of the parents. If Gen X is not made to work at home, then how can we expect them to do so at school without a fair amount of pain distributed among them, us, and their parents? That said, I also hold with the trite old adage that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. My son is a good case in point. I can assure you that Marsha and I impress on him the need for responsibility and a work ethic, but the boy would lose his head if it was not sewn on his shoulders! We keep hoping that one day he will have an epiphany, but that day is yet to arrive. I must add that John is a good boy, a very good boy, but his work ethic needs some adjustment. I think Marsha and I as parents are possibly battling the nurtured idea that kids do not have to work that is perpetrated by SO many other parents. When John’s friends can play all day or sit in front of the tube and vegetate, that is a powerful message that conflicts with what Marsha and I espouse.

Additionally, we are hearing from the work force that graduates are increasingly leaving school unprepared for the work force. Dave, I hear and agree that some of these computer guys will spend hours doing what they want. My problem with that is that the last time I looked, my bosses did not always—if much at all—care what I wanted to do. We are not always given that choice. I suppose that I partially define work ethic by doing what needs to be done to accomplish a task, no matter how enjoyable or onerous it might be.

To wrap up this diatribe, I want to add that in addition to my Advanced Placement Literature class, I teach two journalism classes that cover journalistic style and rules and then apply them to the school’s yearbook and newspaper. My newspaper staff has won numerous awards in the past from the Georgia Scholastic Press Association for their work. That said, I can see a clear decline in the amount of work students want to put into either publication to do a good job. It used to be that my staffs would stay after for hours on end to tweak either one; that simply is not happening any more. Students will sign up for one of the classes and then drop it at the end of the semester when they realize that I want them to work, that I want them to do something—perish forbid!—correctly, or that they can actually fail the class if they do not produce as part of their grade is linked to their actal production. Both publications use Macintosh G4 and G5 computers and digital cameras to do every aspect of the production process as we send camera ready pdfs to our printers. I say this because even the technology does not always hold them. Interestingly enough, the students who DO have some modicum of drive complain about their peers!

I hope no one takes any of these comments negatively; they and $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee!

By the way, I want to apologize for hijacking this thread!

William H. Collier · 11-29-2005, 01:48 PM

J.D.,
Well said and right on.

dsprik · 11-29-2005, 01:52 PM

What resturaunt are we talking about, J.D. I never turn down a free cup of coffee!

I'll probably have to take a rain check for now, though.

I also was just about to apologize for hijacking this thread... Sorry!

Parrothead · 11-29-2005, 02:27 PM

JD
Very well said and I agree with you. I remember working on the Yearbook staff (we called them Annuals) and staying after school night after night to get it just right. I also agree that peer pressure has a lot to do with what we as parents are able to do. Has it always been that way? I don't remember saying to my parents "but everyone is doing it". Wouldn't have held any weight with my Dad anyway!
Happy trails...............

richfaa · 11-29-2005, 02:55 PM

[quote]quote:Originally posted by CmdrDewey

Quote:

Originally posted by richfaa

Well the V-10 will pull anything Montana has and how we use a truck did not warrant a diesel and, just my personal view, we did not care for the 6.0PSD.If diesel fuel stays the way it is I think a lot of folks will be going back to gas. The 07 models will tell the tale////

I never can understand that comment. Gasoline in my area is now going for $2.00 and diesel is $2.49. In the three years and 100,000 miles I have owned my diesel, diesel fuel has been more than gas twice for about a month or two each time. I get 11/mph hauling with diesel and I got 8 with gas. That trailer was shorter and a whole lot lighter. My present cost per mile is $.2266 per mile and with gas it would be $.25. When I figure in the extra costs for oil and general maintenance it figures out to about a wash and that is at current prices. I expect diesel to again go below gas although maybe not until April this year. It will cost me about $360 in fuel to go to FL this winter and last year it was $218. I'm sorry but $284 per year is not going to change my plans one bit. By the way, my truck is worth about $4,000 more than an indentical gas truck which means the additional cost of diesel washes out in the end as well. All of the above is of course JMHO.

Y

I've got nothing against diesels.. I drive one every day You buy what you need, at least we do. .Our towing and driving habits did not warrant a diesel.Got the Ford because because at the time I got it was able to get it on the Ford X plan and would not have got the 6.0PSd anyway..personal choice.My choice for a diesel would have been the Duramax. My opinion is that with the new fuel standards for 07 diesel fuel will never be less that gas again.. That input from a Shell oil exec friend of mine.Anyhow we are all guessing.Time will tell.And , again , personal opinion..the absolute worst reason to justify buying one of these big ole fuel hogs, gas or diesel is MPG.

Ours is a TV only put @ 5k miles a year on it 3 years me =15k miles gas 3 years you = 100,000 miles diesel.My fuel cost is WAY less than yours again..it's what you need and how you use it.... If our towing and driving habits change..and a diesel makes sense..we will get one.....

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