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Old 02-02-2006, 03:29 AM   #1
G McCall
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Poor workmanship

Was under the living room slide and found a rubber seal about to fall off. This 1" + - wide seal appears to be glued (poorly) to the main trailer frame and the slideout presses against it when the slideout is closed (ready to travel).
The seal reaches the full length of the slide and at least half the seal has come unglued and is hanging in air while my slideout is out.
One more "defect" to repair. I did not have such "defects" in my last brand TT, but I am keeping my spirits up. I will reglue the seal.

 
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Old 02-02-2006, 03:57 AM   #2
richfaa
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Without going into my usual 4 paragraph dissertation about quality/workmanship in the Rv industry.I will suggest this. Many of us have taken the tour of the Montana plane in Goshen.We have been there 3 times.When you take the tour the plant is not in operation, they are done for the day, It is a interesting and informative tour. However the last time we were there we got our times mixed up and we were early and they said..whay don't you go on the SPRINTER tour, so we did, The SPRINTER plant is right around the corner, looks just like the Montana plant..BUT they are in full operation. You can actually see the skilled old world craftsmen bulding the units. You are on the assembly line as the units are being built.This is also a interesting and informative tour and if you observe the assembly process and working conditions you may better understand why some of these quality/ workmanship issues occur.IMHO the quality/workmanship problem is NOT with the worker..it is with the process. We order our 3400 in 23 days.
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Old 02-02-2006, 04:07 AM   #3
stiles watson
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Life is funny sometimes. When I first got married I purchased a Ford Falcon. It wasn't beautiful or even very comfortable, but no defects. I drove that dumb car into the ground. It gave marvelously consistent, trouble free service. In later years I drove a Lincoln Towncar--comfort, beauty--a fine road car plus defects and service problems. The same was true with Chrysler New Yorker and my Pontic. Now in Hong Kong the Church has provided a really nice Saab (the pride of Europe) and guess what? In five months, three service calls. That old Ford Falcon.....

I don't really know what this says. Poor workmanship is still irritating and indefensible. But it seems that more apparent comfort and luxury bring a larger array of areas with problematic possibilities. On my Big Sky, I have found places where I thought any idiot ought to know better than that, especially a so-called craftsman. But in the end, everything I have "fixed" is better, sturdier, and safer than before. The Monty sure beats that $200 trouble free tent when we were backpacking. Sorta like that Towncar sure beat that Falcon.

Now this post didn't do a thing for your poor workmanship, but I hope it helps with perspective. Happy RVing....
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:36 AM   #4
padredw
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I am just wondering if yhour problem is somewhat similiar to one I had in the very beginning:



It is not clear from this photo, but this all started with a strip about 4 incles long hanging down at the front end of the bedroom slide.
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:03 AM   #5
G McCall
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by padredw

I am just wondering if yhour problem is somewhat similiar to one I had in the very beginning:



It is not clear from this photo, but this all started with a strip about 4 incles long hanging down at the front end of the bedroom slide.
Well..no, the long seal I refer to is the one I see in your picture that appears sculptured and is painted white. It lies parallel to the slideout and trailer (front to back) and is right below the one in your picture that is distorted.
The seal on my rig is black rubber but appears to be the same as the white one in your photo
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:23 AM   #6
padredw
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Thank you for the response. VERY INTERESTING--that white molding you refer to was ADDED at Keystone's direction when we were trying to get the problem fixed. We finally took the trailer all the way back to the dealer from whom we purchased in Florida after several of our requests to bring it to the factory were refused by Keystone representatives, and several attempts to correct were not satisfactory.

Anyway, my problem manifested itself in the BLACK 'gasket', but I appreciate your response.
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:50 PM   #7
Wrenchtraveller
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Poor workmanship can be traced to poor people. I guess I got lucky but my Montana must have had the good shift on when it was built. I am very pleased with everything so far but I know that one poor employee can ruin a company's reputation.

Most companies need a better quality control to catch the mistakes of poor employees.
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Old 02-10-2006, 11:34 AM   #8
sreigle
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It seems there were a higher number of problems posted in this forum about models from the 2004 model year and maybe part way through the 2005 model year. It seems later models, while not trouble-free, have far fewer problems than those. Possibly coincidentally, Keystone opened a second Montana plant in the middle or latter part of 2005 and went from producing 35 Montanas per day in a single plant to splitting that volume between two plants. Coincidence? Or did they recognize and at least partially solve the problem? The first time we toured the plant, in 2004, they were building 17 per day in the single plant. The second time, later in 2004, they were building 21 per day. That went up to 35 in that same plant. Maybe this is all unrelated but it sure doesn't appear so, at least on the surface.
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Old 02-13-2006, 01:13 AM   #9
G McCall
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Some day when I stop finding problems on my new trailer I might make a list, but that is negative thinking. ha
I reglued the rubber seal yesterday. Knocking the flaws out one at a time.
Trailer goes into the dealer for warranty work this weekend.
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Old 02-13-2006, 01:33 AM   #10
worknomore
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All of the manufacturers in the Elkhart/Goshen area tout 'Amish craftsmanship', which is nothing more than an endearing term to make you think you're getting something special over & above a unit built somewhere else in the country. Truth is, it is the quality control at the end of the assembly line that is in dire need of revamping (and there is no other labor in the area besides the Amish). Inspection for defects prior to shipping is a joke in this industry, and is no different at the Montana plant. Everyone who owns one knows this to be true, and if you are FORTUNATE to get one with no or minor problems, you are the EXCEPTION. Montana/Keystone knows this to be true, but they must believe it is CHEAPER for them to have the dealer take care of their poor Q.C. than to do it at the factory. The bean counters run the show...

It must work, we (RVers) keep on buying the rejects they keep on shipping. By the way, I've been to the factory also, and it is like stepping back in time. Nothing like a modern assembly plant. Do you ever wonder if too much 'old world crafsmanship' is the root of the problem, or a combination of that and the old standby - corporate greed?

Oh, and 'yes', we'll probably buy another one...
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:50 AM   #11
ols1932
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Every manufacturer has problems, some more than others. I'm one of the "fortunate" ones, I guess. We've had a lot fewer problems with the Montana than we had with any other rig coming out of Goshen or Nappanee. It also seems to me (I can't back this up), that the one who is expecting faults can find them.

Orv
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:15 AM   #12
G McCall
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ols1932
It also seems to me (I can't back this up), that the one who is expecting faults can find them.

Orv
You may have me pegged there...
The more I find, the more I look. I am no longer suprised when I find a problem.
This past weekend I was under the new trailer looking for a reason the black water tank will not drain and noticed none of the electric connections to the black water level sensors were connected properly. One wire was totally off dangling in the air, and the other too electric connections were not tight at all. I refastened the connections but the black water tank guage still reads the same...3/4 full, which may be correct becaues the #$#@ tank will not drain properly.
Also, the brackets holding up the drain pipes were very loose as well. You could swivel 2 different brackets that are supposed to be clamped resonably tight down to the pipe. I tighten these items.

I am taking the Unit in to the dealer this weekend for a little warranty work. Leaking shower, black tank drain problem, Daylight (air) coming through the front door seal

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Old 02-13-2006, 04:28 AM   #13
OntMont
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I do believe that many of the "Amish Craftsmen" are indeed craftsmen. It just that their craftsmenship is reserved for their own farms and businesses, not working in the RV factories (any of them).

I have been told that whole crews will just up and leave one plant, and go to another if that other plant is paying a nickle more an hour. Imagine what that does to quality of the end product.

It's a very competitive business, and if there are better built trailers out there, few people are willing to pay the extra cost.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:09 AM   #14
richfaa
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Ha Ha..I have the answer,,do not seek and ye shall not find....On the Amish..We grew up in Amish Country, Western Pa...Many of the workers we saw in the sprinter plant were Mennonites.They have different customs and wear different clothing. Old order Amish can NOT use electricity. There are no old order Amish using power tools in the Rv plants, They are the "old world Craftsmen" there are many sects of Amish, The Amish are in fact a sect of the early Mennonites.And there are just as many "English" workers on the line as others. The Rv assembly line by its very nature breeds poor quality. Anyone who as ever worked on a Non-automated assembly line with little or no quality control will understand that. It you miss what you are given 23.2 seconds to do , it is gone and the next guy has got 25.6 seconds to do his job and no time to correct what the previous station missed. I am impressed that they come off the line as well as they do....Prediction..in the near future the Japanese or Chinese will bring their work ethic and practices to the Rv industry.and the USA Rv industry will be doomed.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:48 AM   #15
G McCall
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You guys are scaring me here...ha

My new Mountaineer is the 4th trailer I have owned, and the second I purchased new. A 1972 Terry Trailer (owned for several years), a 1981 Holiday Rambler TT (owned for 6 years), a 2001 Mobile Scout TT I ourchased new and still have and this 2005 Mountaineer TT.
The Holiday Rambler is now owned by my brother, parked at our deer lease. The furnace, and tank guages failed in the last several years, otherwise all works great. All else is original too. There is quality there.
The 2001 Mobile Scout has worked great from the day we bought it, with the exception of replacing one faucet and a leaky drain valve. Thats it.
The Montana well..........I'm working on it. Eager to get it going.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:51 AM   #16
CountryGuy
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Did not know that about the Old Order Amish, we were told that each "Elder" or head of an area's group can make decisions that govern that, and even the color of their buggies. Was told that they could use electricity to do a job, but that they could not have in their homes. In other words, if their job required that they use a power tool, they could, need to use a computer, OK, BUT not at home. Some of them even have cell phones that they are allowed to use to do business activities. Well, guess I learned something today.

One thing I know, is that I find it hard to tell the difference in the Mennonites and the Amish, cept that in my small experience the Mennonites seem to have "lightened" up, for lack of a better word. The Mennonites in my grandmother's home area, wear nylons, much more modern looking dresses, drive cars, all that stuff. And, some others in the same area, still have the bland clothing and drive the horse and buggy to the grocery store.

Sorry off subject,
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Old 02-13-2006, 07:11 AM   #17
richfaa
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New Amish..they look just like the Old Amish, but they may use power tools. the Mennonites wear lighter colored clothing and some of the more liberal sects drive cars, etc. It is just like the different denominations of Baptist or Presbyterians or whatever,They have different rules and customs. We had old order Amish build our Utility barn out back..The contractor fired up a generator and they used power tools powered off the generator, sneaky humm..They can have appliances powered off propane or natural gas..so they can have a washer and dryer.. However there are many old order sects that will have none of that.http://www.goshen.edu/facultypubs/To...ers_amish.html
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:31 AM   #18
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Back when I sold RVs, I always laughed at the sales brochures which touted "Amish workmanship". While they seem to do great work making furniture, they have no experience using modern equipment required to construct RVs. Most of their homes have no electricity or power equipment. Their horse drawn carriages are very nice. There is no innate skill that they have---they are trained like everyone else. Most of the workers we saw in the Goshen area were hispanics---they do good work, too, just like they are trained to do. A good, solid quality control program is needed---not a pay program based on the number of units that you can crank out each day.
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Old 02-14-2006, 01:29 PM   #19
Wrenchtraveller
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Ham fisted simpletons come in any ethnic configuration and the poorest workmanship I ever saw was in an 1987 Slumber Queen 5th wheel which is a Canadian brand and I am a Canadian.
This company now makes decent stuff but I like the American made RVs better and I think that the ethnic back ground of the workers is a non issue. A company has to have good quality control.

I fix machinery for a living. If the machine I fixed breaks down after I work on it, I better be able to prove it was not my workmanship that caused the failure. Good companies make their employees accountable. It is the only way to survive in today's business world.
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:52 PM   #20
sreigle
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The MennoHof center in Shipshewana, IN, gives you the evolution of the Amish religion and its various branches and offshoots. Each branch makes a lot of their own rules. What is true for a group in Western PA may be totally different than for the "old order" Amish in Indiana or elsewhere.

When we had dinner at an Amish farmhome, an activity of the 2004 Montana Rally, they had electric milkers in their barn. They had a gasoline powered generator to generate the electricity. At MennoHof we learned the Amish in that area cannot own cars and trucks but they can ride in them. They can take a bus across country. Or train. Or plane. But they cannot drive any of those. On the other hand, they could pilot farm equipment to, for example, harvest crops. But they could not personally own that equipment. MennoHof is very interesting and well worth a visit when you are in the area.

At that same farm where we had dinner Vicki commented to one of the teenaged males of the family about his very nice buggy. With obvious pride he explained it has all the options, such as turn signals. And I'll never forget his comment, stated with a swelling pride, that "it is faster than my brother's!"
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