1/2 Ton Tow #2 - Montana Owners Club

TLightning · 08-24-2013, 02:23 PM

In view of the other thread on the subject of "1/2 Ton Tow," I thought it appropriate to publish the following. I am a member of a number of RV forums, and do not recall where I found this one. However, I saved it and now it seems to be pertinent:

"My professional career has spanned a great number of years in the legal field...I offer the following comments as suggestions as to what I believe to be the best course of action regarding tow vehicles. This information is not to be considered a "legal opinion," and, please do not send me emails or PMs requesting more information or technical questions.

I have read a number of threads and posts regarding members asking questions about tow vehicles and various weight issues, and believe some guidance/suggestions might be appreciated. Many of the responses are incorrect, misleading and, whether or not intended, quite deceiving. The good people asking these questions are seeking answers to what they perceive to be very confusing and complex issues. One of the problems is that many members posting have no knowledge of the subject matter, and are regurgitating what an RV or truck salesman has told them regarding TVs. Although their intentions are good, and they might have been using a particular TV without problems for a while, these members should not offer information on a subject in which they have virtually no knowledge. Much of this information is totally incorrect.

If you should have the misfortune of being in a court of law as a result of a motor vehicle accident involving a truck/RV combination, and the weight of your TV and/or RV comes into question...both vehicles should be within ALL the manufacturer's specifications as noted on the appropriate stickers attached to the vehicles and/or located on the equipment. These include combined weight, gross weight, tire capacity, axle capacity, hitch capacity, pin capacity (MorRyde), etc. Many do not realize it, but there are many other weight restrictions within those noted above, of which the consumer has no knowledge, such as bearings, frames, shocks, rims, springs, and many other vehicle parts. You can add anything you desire in the form of big tires, larger axles, air bags, extra springs, bigger shocks, none of which will affect the stickers on the vehicles upon which they are mounted. Should any part of any of your vehicles exceed the manufacturer's ratings, you will have a very difficult time convincing the court that it is okay to be over those ratings. A great number of posters like to say that their vehicle "pulls fine"...which is okay, but (excuse the pun) that reasoning will not carry much weight in a court of law.

If you have added something to a truck or RV that you believe truly increases capacity...such as axles, not air bags...get some type of documentation from the manufacturer that states your GVWR has been increased. Be advised that some type of written documentation is necessary in order for it to be valid. Keep in mind, however, that just because you have gone from 6k axles to 7k axles (or bigger tires, etc) your GVWR may not be increased due to frame, body or other limitations, that might be known only to the manufacturer.

In summary, it has gone around the Internet that gross weight and combined weight ratings are just suggestions, and are numbers that can be ignored, whereas tire and axle ratings must be followed. This is totally incorrect information and should not be followed. If you elect to exceed published maximum ratings of any item on either of your vehicles, be prepared to suffer the consequences of that action."

**DQDick** · 08-24-2013, 06:10 PM

Great information. Escapee's offer rig weighing at several of their parks and weigh each wheel separately. They will match their findings to the sticker on your door. We were very happy when ours passed. Two others that weighed the same day we did didn't. A sad situation. One couple obviously didn't have the money to replace an old truck. The other couple had just bought a new fancy 5th wheel and the truck some dealer told them would pull it and then had the truck custom painted to match the trailer. The dealer lied.

grampachet · 08-24-2013, 06:38 PM

The Ford chart for the F250 states the V10 crewcab 4x4 with 4.30 gears had a GCVW of 20,000 and the 3.73 of 17,000. Is there actually a safety factor or legal issue involved with the GCVW of the 3.73 gears verses the 4.30. Same truck different gear ratio only. Wouldnt this be a warranty issue not a safety issue? Thats a 3000 pound difference! I know this 150-250-350-450 debate will always be unending.

Irlpguy · 08-25-2013, 04:43 AM

This has to be the best post regarding TV and RV capacities, you have made several very important points without getting into the technical part of ensuring your vehicles comply with their rated weights.

Not only is the posting a glaring indication of the crap fed to people by salesmen when purchasing a new trailer or truck, but it underlines the many, many times suggestions have been made in this forum from well meaning owners that are incorrect or inaccurate. The stickers are there for a reason, to not follow those "limits" invites all kinds of problems.

We are not assisted in our decision making when the manufacturer produces a trailer that is on the "edge" to begin with, they put the stickers on to protect themselves from liability and allow a small margin of safety. We should follow them.

richfaa · 08-26-2013, 12:34 PM

very good and informative information... There will be many post saying this guy does not know what he is talking about. I have got the pop corn going for this one.

NCFischers · 08-26-2013, 01:22 PM

Until someone winds up in in court on the wrong side. Does anyone think that some shyster lawyer wouldn't have a field day with this?

richfaa · 08-26-2013, 02:16 PM

My thought is that IF you wound up in court on a accident case there is no way that the weight issue would not come up. Attorneys are there to win cases and will use every tool available to do that.

HOOK · 08-26-2013, 02:58 PM

Mr Jones,did you know that your truck and trailer has specific weight limits?How will you answer?

NCFischers · 08-26-2013, 04:23 PM

And like they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
That being said, everyone needs to make their own choices as to what they are hauling these rigs around with.

Art-n-Marge · 08-26-2013, 05:08 PM

On the other hand, I think all the choices should air on the side of safety and compliance, not what you feel like or wanna do. I am one of those who legally upgraded my truck for a proper conversion and know what it was and what it went to based on the components on a side by side comparisons. One of the requirements is that I must keep all the documentation for the work done (springs, hardware, wheels and tires) unless I get a new pillar label (it's called "recertification"). Since I only did this for my personal use, it is legal. If I want to resell the truck and advertise the new numbers, or if I want to tow at the new weights commercially then a recertification is required.

Know what works and what doesn't work and lawyers starve. My lawyer friends remind me all the time that if people knew what they were doing, they'd be poor and no one would wanna be a lawyer. I am a firm believer that an accident due to ignorance or carelessness is NOT an accident.

richfaa · 08-26-2013, 05:28 PM

We have a one ton, Crew cab, Long bed , dually Diesel in fact we have had two of them. I did not want either one of them. They are ugly. They do not fit hardly anywhere. They are a pain in the butt to drive around . We are always looking for a dually parking spot or where can we park this D**m thing. we avoid driving it anytime we can . It does not fit in the garage and it is as we speak taking up a big chunk of the driveway. However.. when we did the numbers for the 06 3400 the carry capacity and therefore the pin weight failed the test. So we purchased what we needed not what we wanted. Such is life.....

Art-n-Marge · 08-26-2013, 08:14 PM

Rich, I would love to have your truck problem. But I have a feeling you wouldn't trade. Fair enough. Sometimes what you want gets overruled by what you should do.

dieselguy · 08-27-2013, 03:28 AM

Although a valid posting ... "Team Weight Police" is far outnumbered by Joe Average who if his truck will pull it ... will tow with it. Many seasonal RVers only tow 3 - 4 times a year when a holiday comes up ... whether they are aware of this issue or not, they're not going to invest in a truck legally up to the task unless they need it for other demands their lives have. I propose let's quit beating this horse and concentrate on our own what-ifs.

Irlpguy · 08-27-2013, 06:49 AM

dieselguy wrote:

Quote:

quote:
Although a valid posting ... "Team Weight Police" is far outnumbered by Joe Average who if his truck will pull it ... will tow with it. Many seasonal RVers only tow 3 - 4 times a year when a holiday comes up ... whether they are aware of this issue or not, they're not going to invest in a truck legally up to the task unless they need it for other demands their lives have. I propose let's quit beating this horse and concentrate on our own what-ifs.

I am not sure it is fair to put those owners in a category called "Weight Police" that have done due-diligence and ensured their TV and RV were not over the capacities of either. For sure far more people either have no idea of their weights or choose to ignore them than those that do not, that does not make the others "Weight Police".

What I see as wrong is those that you put in the "Joe Average" category suggesting to a new/newer owner who is concerned and posts here in the forum, and is then given suggestions to perform certain mods that do not make his TV either "legal" or safer since it is still overweight. Not to mention the poor/inaccurate advise given by both TV and RV sales people.

In spite of all the efforts to decrease the weight and increase the size of the RV's throughout the industry, some require a significantly more robust TV than others to be safe and legal. If you are going to tow one of these you make the choice to either buy a TV capable of handling the RV safely or not. That choice affects not only yourself and your family but it very well may affect some innocent traveler using the same road as you.

I will never criticize anyone for their choices, but would always advise that they get the proper equipment to do the job, and where possible assist them in determining what they need.

I have no other need for a 1 ton dually as opposed to a 3/4 ton SRW in my life at this point, however I "need" that size of truck to safely and legally pull my 3402RL. I bought my first dually for added stability when I was using a camper and pulling a boat, I love them and have no problem finding a parking spot, either drive in, parallel or otherwise.

IMHO We should stop flogging this horse when prospective owners are given proper advise on the subject right from the get go.

richfaa · 08-27-2013, 08:26 AM

There is no horse to beat. It is simple. The capacities of the tow vehicle are clearly stated as are those of The RV. It is simple math and of course understanding of how to do the math. In my case I was fortunate enough to have knowledgeable people to advise me of how to determine what truck would safely and within specs tow my first 5th wheel a 2006 Montana 3400.That truck was a 2005 F-350 Long bed, Crew cab Dually. In my mind I had no choice like it or not. The truck was a V-10 I was not a fan of the smelly, noisy Diesel or the 6.0L Ford Diesel available at the time.(I had to buy Ford because of the Ford Family plan and the huge discounts involved) The V-10 served us well but after a trip out west in the big mountains I then understood what folks were saying about the Gas VS Diesel. We now have the 2008 F-350 diesel in our sig and now pull a 2013 3402.

The final choice is the individuals but the individual should be aware of how to determine what tow vehicle is within all spec's and how to determine that.
I do not mind being the "weight police" if it means educating a individual or correctly answering a question by those who ask it.

Having the correct information is one thing.. What one does with it is always their choice.

TLightning · 08-27-2013, 12:36 PM

IMHO, many owners don't get the right advice "from the get go." They get it from an RV dealer, who wants to sell and RV, or a truck salesman, who wants to sell a truck, or from a forum member who's driving a too small truck because he listened and believed one of the former. I'm constantly amazed by the "pull fine" posts. ANY diesel will do that, but not all can carry the pin weight of a Montana...and stay within the specs.

dsprik · 08-27-2013, 01:30 PM

My 2013 GMC 3500HD SRW states GVWR at 11,700#, but the actual truck weight is not stated. I guess a trip (with the truck only) to the weight scales loaded how I travel and a full tank of diesel is in order and probably better anyway. I'll keep the scale paperwork in my glove box. I would think that would be considered official? My 2007 3400 pin weight changes every trip to FL and then back to MI, but it runs around 2,200#. So if my truck weighs under 9,500#, I should be good.

richfaa · 08-27-2013, 01:53 PM

Dave my sort of educated guess on what your truck will weigh ready to hook up the Montana will be @ 8500lbs that will leave you @ 3200lbs for pin weight. the pin weight on our 06 3400 just a few months older the your 07 3400 and we ran heavy was 2700 lbs at the last weigh in so you should be well within spec's.

K0LCB · 08-27-2013, 02:04 PM

If the pin weight is too heavy, will moving some of the "stuff" to the back help offset it?

psomers · 08-27-2013, 03:26 PM

What happened today you wont believe. We were at the dealer having warranty work done. While there a couple came in and bought a Keystone Fusion toy hauler. The Fusion had a GVW of over 16000#. The couple had a 2011 Ford F250 8.2 gas burner. The dealer refused to let them drive the Fusion off the lot. The couple was going to borrow a friend's F350 to get Fusion off lot.
Proves some dealers wont accept the liability of overloading.
I thought the F250 would be fine.

You may also like: