RV Comparison Guides???

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Has anyone on this Forum purchased and/or read the books on RV Comparison's sold on the following web site:

http://www.jrconsumer.com/

I'm curious as to what is reported on the Montana line and/or what they report on how the Montana line compares to others. I've not read or even seen one or any of these so I sure don't know what is in them. I've always wished that there would be a magazine like Consumer Reports publishing the kind of information on RV's like they do on automobiles. I think if these books published the kind of information CR does on auto's, I would have heard of them before.

If you have seen this info please tell us what is in them and your opinion of the quality of the data! Thanks in advance.

[8e3k0]

Dean, we have to be very careful reports, because if we would have followed Consumers evaluation on the 09 Ford Escape and the 08/09 Ford Super Duty with the 6.4 we should have never purchased either one. We went ahead on our own with detailed comparisons for what we needed and bought 2 09 Escape LTDs, and the 09 F350 Dually and are very happy with no warranty claims on any of the three after 4 to 6 months of driving in some of the most extreme cold weather conditions. I expect the same from our new 3400RL Monty after spending many hours of going over the unit at the dealer and now at home. We had exceptional support from our dealer in all cases so maybe we are lucky or simply special. Ellis

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Ellis,
The bell shaped curve of statistical reliability data always allows some to be extremely bad or extremely good. Our 2006 3400RL unfortunately falls toward the end of one of those extremes. I'm still curious as to what these books, I referenced, reported on the Montana line. I suspect the failure/repair statistics on Ford's 6.0L and 6.4L diesel engines show quite a different skew than the 7.3L diesel engine. In the engine area I don't like taking any more chances than I have to so I stayed with my 2003 7.3L F250 which was also recommended to me by the Service Manager of the Largest and most respected Ford truck dealer in the state of WA. I've never regretted it. The resale value of trucks with the 7.3L engine is dramatically higher than the later engined trucks. My Ford F250 truck and 7.3L engine have essentially been trouble free with now nearly 90,000 miles on it. Our experience with approximately 12,000 miles on the 2006 3400RL has been the extreme opposite. I sincerely hope that you have continued good luck with all your vehicles and the Montana 3400RL.

PS: Still looking for what was in these books relative to the Montana.

[8e3k0]

The Fords and Deeres (John Deere) are still surviving hrough this economic crunch and all through the past have served us well, so I sure hope we get that enjoyment out of our Monty.
I was also contemplating on the JR Consumer book but have to many irons in the fire to read it at this time. Be nice to see if anyone has purcahsed and read the book with comments. Ellis

[Dean A Van Peursem]

8e3k0,

Dean,
Finding the "correct" place to post a thread can be a challenge. It is probably more 'art' than 'science' but the Moderators and Admin of the MOC will make the final decision of where a particular thread will be posted. We appreciate the members making a bon a fide attempt to post in the proper place. In this case your thread deals with BOOKS not RVs. And now you've changed it to deal with other issues. Since it is a thread started by you there should be no complaint about being "off topic". If someone else had posted this response it would be removed due to being off topic.

Thank you,
RVWheels, MOC Admin.

Since this "RV Comparison" thread has been moved to an area that is supposed to be about things that have NOTHING to do with RV's/RVing I guess we can talk about Ford and John Deere! :-) I am proud that Ford hasn't had their hand out for bailout money. I'm a pretty loyal Ford truck owner but the Ford 6.0L and 6.4L engine has really tested that loyalty. Hopefully the new 6.7L Diesel engine made by Ford, not International, will get them back on track. However, the 6.4L has been allot less troublesome than the 6.0L engine. I've also heard, w/o verification, that the basic 6.0L and 6.4L engine is pretty good until Ford adds all it's stuff. Ford has been really hurt by the problems they have had with these engines.

Since I'm an avid JD Collector of the older two cylinder tractors I've observed JD go through the transition from a family owned and managed company to a company run by financial types. The current direction isn't so good IMHO. They are surviving but primarily because they are adequately diversified. The quality of their products and the support they give their customer has deteriorated significantly over the last 10 years. They are leveraging the quality associated with the "JOHN DEERE" name heavily but are not producing the the level of quality products they used to. When you see a "John Deere" name on a low end Garden Tractor at Lowes or with the "Scotts" brand name they have farmed out the production of their GT's to MTD in order to compete at the very low end of the market. The quality of these tractors are no better than their competition but have the name which attracts unsuspecting customers. We JD collectors have always paid a little more to get the higher quality. Hard to achieve both simultaneously any more. But I still do have more respect for the quality that Ford and JD builds than what I have observed and experienced so far in the RV industry.

[indy roadrunner]

Dean, here is my take on RV comparison. You take 3 Montana units in a row off the assembly line and go to any other SOB camper manufacture and do the same and line them up. Chances are you would not see the same quality in any of the units and here is my reasoning. When I worked at Bell Helicopter we had fixture "jigs" which everything was built to tolerances - interchangeable. I toured the Navistar truck factory in Ohio and they were assembled in jigs and fixtures to make sure everything matched up down the line. I toured the Toyota Forklift plant in Columbus In and they were assembled in fixtures (jigs). But when I toured the Montana plant in Goshen - how many fixtures and jigs did you see in the plant. I think up on the mezanine there was a fixture for assembling the roof. But the point being - nearly everything was assembled without any reference to stability points for consistency. So what if a cabinet is 1/4 inch off - no problem, use different size trim. How about wiring - slap it in there the best way, maybe that is why the manufactures cannot provide a wiring diagram. So to sum this up how can the manf. of RV's (any brand) have consistency of the same quality of build when there is nothing to measure tolerances. Maybe the frame build I don't know didn't tour Lippart.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Phil,

I totally understand. The basic tenant of the Quality Standards under ISO 9000 is that every single product is built exactly the same way. You have focused on and zeroed in on the problem. And then maybe closet door hinges wouldn't be put on upside down too! :-)

[richfaa]

Indy.. I don't think it could be said any better than that.... The RV industry is unique.

We did see one of those comparison books a few years ago but did not see the Montana line because at the time we were not interested in the Montana. The comparisons we noted, Jayco, Forest river, Hitchhiker, did not match up with what we were seeing and hearing in the real world. Same with these truck comparisons .To me they are almost never real world.Example..Our 08 6.4L Ford has been perfect.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Rich,

What I was really looking for a wider sample than what we have personally experienced. From what I hear on the street is the reliability of the 6.4L Diesel is much better than the 6.0L but does not yet reach the reliability of the 7.3L. Therefore, I would be very suspect of any book that didn't show that in their data compilation. But... really I was looking for data on RV's. I'm just curious how the Montana line stacked up against the other manufacturers as just another general data point. I hope the experiences we both have had with the 06 3400RL's are out on the left end of the bell shaped curve. But sometimes I really wonder. And yes, Indy really hit the fundamental quality issue of the RV industry right on the head. Thanks for responding. BTW, I don't know why there has been so little of a response to a question about the RV Comparision books. Don't know if these books are not very popular or because this thread got moved to a section I normally don't monitor. Maybe other MOC'ers don't monitor this section either. For some reason the JayCo line generally seems to get relatively high marks on RVNet but I've not taken a big enough sample to draw any real conclusions. I do know that if we ever considered buying another RV we would have to do a detailed investigation and tour of the manufacturing plants for any RV we were giving serious consideration to. It would seem logical to me that a few may have "gotten it" by now. But maybe not. There just has to be a manufacturer who's bell shaped reliability curve is skewed to the right, meaning better quality than others statistically. What I suspect is that during the good times the cost of entry into the RV business was low enough that it didn't screen out those that didn't have their act together. With the current economic conditions that has casused so many RV manufacturers to disappear or significantly reduce their production, I suspect that a whole new database will have to be started because the old data doesn't reflect current manufacturing conditions or maybe even the same management. I suspect that if the economy significantly recovers we will see a whole new bunch of RV startups by personnel who were previously employed in other plants. That may not be all good. Still waiting for a Japanese owned entry.

[indy roadrunner]

"because this thread got moved to a section I normally don't monitor. Maybe other MOC'ers don't monitor this section either."
Dean, in response to this statement, when I sign on to MOC I click on "Active Topics" what will give me all post since the last time I signed on. Saves time wading through topics/post I have already read.

Besides it says this thread has had 203 hits, looks like someone is reading.

[exav8tr]

I think that most of us reading and participating in this forum are already Montana owners and as such it is a little too late to do comparison shopping. Although a good idea for NEXT time, I doubt that any entity would like to take on the responsibility of making those comparisons. I also think that the standards of the RVIA (whoever they are), need to be strictly enforced, possibly upgraded to stricter standards. But then, how do you establish standards on rigs ranging in price from very low to very high??

I am reminded of several things said on this forum. RICHFAA says these were made to "recreate" and not live in as a mobile home and Carol says: To own an RV you have to be handy with your hands and handy with your cash. Unfortunate, Maybe, but true.

I think, Dean, what you have experienced is WAY outside the norm as not many folks seem to be reporting the problems you have had with you 3400. With the same year and model, I have relatively few problems with mine. Maybe yours was made on that dreaded Monday thing.....

[richfaa]

We actually had one major problem with ours early on" The meltdown" which in turn caused a domino effect on other 12V items over the next several months. The melt down was caused by poor workmanship and poor quality control and did not have to happen. It has happened( fire in the front compartment) to others on this forum and other forums. We always reported our failures small and large so that others might be able to avoid them. That gave the appearance that we had a lot of problems and we did but most of them were minor to sort of minor.They all occurred in the first year of ownership (06) and were all corrected under keystone warranty. We had a black tank failure and a leaking hydraulic line in
07,08 both corrected under extended warranty. We have been relatively trouble free since Aug of 08. Wellll the little emergency light fell off the side of the island on the way back from Florida. We and others use these things in a matter they were not designed to be used. We use our hard..lots on living in it time and lots of road miles. Dean I think is the execption but that does him no good. We know Dean and we know his probems are real. Andddd/Our 3400's have a build date so close that they may have been on the line the same week...go figure... I wold like tosee that book but I undestand they are expensive.