Low voltage and surge suppression revisited

[stiles watson]

Recently, we have had a healthy discussion about protecting our Montanas from both low voltage damage and from surges in the supply line. There is a write up at the URL, listed below, that might be very interesting to those seeking information related to the debate. It includes an installation, with some pictures, in a 2004 Montana. What do you think?

http://www.geocities.com/genieyorks/autoformer

[Ozzie]

It seems to me that the sequence of connecting these items leads to confusion. To me (electrically challenged)it would make sense to have the surge protection first (no low voltage cutoff), the autoformer in the middle, then a low voltage cutoff to the rig last. This would protect the autoformer from spikes, let it do it's job with the low voltage, and if it can't boost the voltage to keep it in an acceptable range, the cutoff would protect the trailer (an auto reset would be mandatory for me to protect animals while away).

[sreigle]

Stiles, you may already know this --- that link is to CountryGuy's website.

[stiles watson]

Ozzie,

If I understood the write up and demo correctly, the service does protect the autoformer. Intermetric is wired into it rather than into the breaker box. Of course I might be wrong, having my own electrical deficency. I don't know what you mean about a cutoff. The surge suppression suppresses the spike and the autoformer boasts the voltage.

Surge Guard is the device that shuts off service. That is why I didn't want to use it unless it became my only or best option.

[Ozzie]

The cutoff I'm speaking of is the low voltage protection I have with my current surge protector. If the voltage is too low, it cuts off the power and automagically resets with no user intervention.
Having this cutoff in front of the autoformer would cut the power right away rather than let the autoformer try to bring the voltage up.
And since the autoformer does not appear to have a low voltage cutoff, one would need to be added downline.

What puzzles me is the fact that the Intermatic wires to the side of the box rather than inline. Reading of the install of the Intermatic it states that it needs two breakers in the box.

What I want is the whole power regulation handled inline before it gets to the box, so what I think I need is an inline surge protector without a low voltage cutoff in front of the autoformer. I can then use my existing surge protector that has the low voltage cutoff after the autoformer (use it just for the cutoff) in case the autoformer cannot condition the line properly.

Am I making sense, or making matters worse? I have the logic in my head, but having limited electrical knowledge makes it hard to explain.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Bruce--your proposed setup makes sense to me. It gives the Autoformer a chance to boost low voltage up to acceptable levels. If the voltage is too low for the Autoformer to bring it high enough, the Surge Guard is there to automatically shut the system down for 2 minutes before it resets and samples the incoming voltage again. An inline surge protector upstream of the Autoformer provides surge protection for the Autoformer. Makes sense.

[Ozzie]

Whew! Thank you David. Now I feel I am on track with this thing.
I just need to find how to do the surge suppression in front of the autoformer without the cut off and I'm in business. I want to do mine in a cabinet in the rear where my elec comes in. There is a large area under our fridge...water on one side and the elec cord storage on the other (the cord terminates at a box there). I want the whole works in there and will add ventilation as needed.

I have experienced the voltage cut off first hand and can say it's a real blessing. We left to go into town shopping and had the air on for our dog. When we came back, everything looked fine still until I noticed our oven clock had lost power and needed to be reset. The air was still running, and I believe the time between the auto reset was adequate for the air unit to not incur damage. That's about as good as you can get without being there.

[Hemlockusa]

I think it would be nice if this protection was STANDARD EQUIPMENT on all units SOLD, just think of how much more time we could spend talking about toilets and tire's..
Now I am going to get serious, It's really funny to me that there is only TWO companies that have the autoformer FRANKS AND HUGHES... with all the electrical companies out there you would think that s several more would step up to the PLATE so to speak. Only one company that I know of offers this (brand name) surge guard for voltage monitoring.. I think in this vast internet WEB someone else has these products and possibly a whole lot cheaper. My bet is on MUDCHIEF OR OZZ to come up with a real FIX... I'am waiting John

[ols1932]

I'll jump in here again. If the CG overall power is too low (102 volt cutoff), the surge guard will not allow voltage to the rig. That's why I use the autoformer in front of the surge guard, between the surge guard and CG power. Otherwise, you won't have any power to the rig. The autoformer is designed to boost the voltage 10 to 14%.

Orv

[David and Jo-Anna]

Orv--I agree the it makes sense to have the Autoformer in front of the Surge Guard to give it a chance to boost the voltage up before going thru the 102v voltage cutoff threshold of the Surge Guard. But as Bruce has suggested, it makes sense to put an in line surge protector ahead of the Autoformer for additional protection--a simple in line surge protector is much cheaper to replace than an Autoformer that gets hit with a surge.

John--I know of at least one other company that makes a competitor to the Surge Guard and that is designed to function the same way--it is made by an outfit called Electrical Management System. But it is more expensive than the Surge Guard--$399 for a hard-wired 50 amp device. So I see no need to go to something else besides the Surge Guard and the Autoformer. I'm still wrestling with the question of whether to hard-wire in both devices or go with a portable configuration--at least for the Autoformer.

[ols1932]

David, I agree. However with what we pay for these rigs, what's another autoformer. I've used one for all the years we've been fulltiming and haven't had a problem. One night we had a bad storm and my surge protector worked and turned off the power. The autoformer wasn't hurt. If I was going to keep a surge protector hooked up directly to the CG power all the time, then if I am connected to power that fluctuates (and believe me it does in some CGs) my power will be going off and on.

Your point is well taken.

Orv

[David and Jo-Anna]

Orv--glad to hear that your Autoformer didn't get fried by the voltage surge you experienced. But I have heard others on this forum report about their Autoformers getting fried by a surge--which has me inclined to put a simple in-line surge protector upstream of the Autoformer for added protection. And the in-line surge protector would not be a Surge Guard which cuts on and off with voltage flucuations but just one designed to absorb and shunt really high voltage spikes. So I would assume that would not go on and off very much at all. Plus, such a simple inline surge protector has to be considerably cheaper than a new Autoformer.

Also, if the Autoformer is hard-wired in, you have the added risk of having your power totally cutoff by a dead Autoformer if it gets fried. Speaking of which, would I be correct in assuming that you are using the portable Autoformer and not a hard-wired one?

And a question for you and others who use an Autoformer--do you plug it in all the time when you hookup or only plug it in if and when you notice that the CG voltage is low?

[stiles watson]

This thread is giving me a headache.

[Ozz]

quote:Originally posted by stiles watson

This thread is giving me a headache.

Me too.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

David

You stated: "if the Autoformer is hard-wired in........."

IF, the Autoformer goes bad, you simply unplug it. Cannot remember if you can see on our web site, but Al has his installation with male and female plugs, in other words, he did not remove the plugs that came with the Autoformer directly from Hughes.

OK, after a bit of discussion so, ole Carol could understand, Al took the wiring that comes INTO the fuse panel out of the fuse panel and added a female recepticle to it. He then added about 5 foot of wire to the fuse panel and added a male plug to that. lots of confusion for me, but I finally understand that if that Autoformer needs to be disconnected for whatever reason, we have a male and female that can be plugged back together and in seconds we are back up and electrified, cept that Autoformer is sitting there not working.

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by David and Jo-Anna

Speaking of which, would I be correct in assuming that you are using the portable Autoformer and not a hard-wired one?

And a question for you and others who use an Autoformer--do you plug it in all the time when you hookup or only plug it in if and when you notice that the CG voltage is low?

Yes, I use the portable autoformer and I only use it when the CG voltage is 105 or less.

If you use some kind of surge suppressor in front of the autoformer, is that some kind of portable unit? I haven't seen any that would readily catch my eye for use in our situation. It seems like a good idea though.

Orv

[richfaa]

I am simple minded and can only understand simple things. The auto former will keep voltage within acceptable levels..that is a good thing. The voltage spike will fry a auto former, they are designed to give up their life to protect your camper in the event of a voltage spike. So, simple as I am I would think that you would not want a voltage spike to ever get to your auto former thereby preventing the self sacrifice. So with the surge protector between the power pole and the auto former it would do nothing and the auto former would protect your camper//in the event of a HIGH voltage spike the Surge protector would protect the auto former by preventing the spike from frying it. Is that to simple...????

[David and Jo-Anna]

My goodness--didn't mean to cause anyone headaches. Let me take one more small stab at this before I drop it.

Rich, you are correct in what you are saying. The only difficulty I have with putting the Surge Guard upstream of the Autoformer is that this would reduce the effectiveness of the Autoformer. For example, if the Surge Guard comes before the Autoformer, and if the CG voltage drops to say 100v, the Surge Guard would disconnect from CG power, and the Autoformer would never get a chance to do anything. However, if the Autoformer were in front of the Surge Guard, it should be able to boost the 100v incoming juice up to something like 110v before the juice gets to the Surge Guard, so the Surge Guard would not cutoff power, and your rig can remain on CG power without damage. That's the advantage of putting the Autoformer in front of the Surge Guard.

The one downside risk of that configuration is what you note--the Autoformer would be vulnerable to getting fried by a voltage spike. That's why I was proposing to put a simple, relatively inexpensive inline surge protector in front of the Autoformer to protect it.

Does this make any sense, or am I just causing more headaches?

[Ozzie]

The issue with putting the Surge Guard in front of the autoformer is not surge protection, it is the cutoff in case of low voltage. There is an inline surge protector for 80 bucks that does not have the low voltage cutoff - it offers the surge protection I believe would protect the autoformer.

One last thing about this whole setup...having to go through all this to put together a system that will function properly is ridiculous. Why the proper system isn't available is beyond my comprehension. Who wants to spend big bucks on an autoformer and then again on the low voltage cutoff only to have the autoformer give up it's life to protect your rig. What ever happened to being user serviceable?
This autoformer needs a redesign.

I agree with John - I think OZZ ought to build a nice proper unit and start marketing them - he'd give the other boys a good run for their money. And I'll be happy to give it a go...

[stiles watson]

Ozzie, you are correct. Surge Guard is NOT the device to put ahead of the autoformer for the reasons stated (the low voltage cutoff). The device to use is a surge suppression device to suppress any surge but has no low voltage management capacity. The autoformer manages the low voltage. That is what it is for. One such surge device is manufactured by Intermetric and costs about $50 - $80 (Residential Hardwired Protection IG3240RC).

Surge Guard is a brand of device while surge protection or suppression is the function. Not all surge protection devices have low voltage cutoffs as does Surge Guard. Surge Guard and surge protection are not synonyms. From reading some posts, I get the impression that some of us might be using Surge Guard as a function designation rather than a brand Name.

Here is the way I want my power management system to work and in this order.

• Camp Ground supply
• High voltage surge protection
• Low voltage management (autoformer)
• Monty's electrical distribution system (converter/breakerbox)

Someone mentioned a device called Electroflow manufactured by ETI that is supposed to do it all. I could not find any clear device discription or price list. However, many electrical types are extremely skeptical on the forums I visited. An all-in-one device that resets itself without interupting your service would be very nice.