Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > Tow Vehicles & Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-21-2008, 05:47 PM   #1
cucalene
Established Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rancho Cucamonga
Posts: 25
M.O.C. #8260
Send a message via AIM to cucalene
The New Ford Diesel Oil Change

I wanted to share something with you that I’ve been seeing a lot in the field and it may be useful to some of your customers. We’ve been seeing some issues with vehicles that experience extended idle times and their maintenance intervals. Of course this has been an issue with 6.0Ls because the engine uses oil to hydraulically deliver fuel into the combustion chamber. We’ve seen injector failures caused by poor oil change intervals because of the repetitive pressure the engine oil is exposed to. Now that we’ve moved away from the hydraulic injection system, customers cannot assume that oil change intervals are any less important and assume it is possible to extend drain intervals.



The 6.4L engine is equipped with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF). This filter captures the soot in the exhaust stream and allows the engine to comply with 2007 EPA emission regulations. This filter needs to be cleaned or “regenerated” regularly. The regeneration process occurs periodically. During regeneration, fuel is delivered into the combustion chamber via the fuel injectors post piston top dead center. Once the exhaust valves open, the fuel exhaust mixture is forced out of the engine and into a Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC). The DOC catalyzes a reaction and breaks down the soot built up in the DPF. During regeneration, an inherent side effect is that the fuel delivered into the combustion chamber may pass by the piston rings, because fuel has a lower viscosity than oil, and enter the crankcase. Ultimately, this fuel will accumulate in the crankcase and mix with the engine oil. This is expected to happen and vehicles that are maintained properly will not be negatively impacted at all.

Unfortunately, vehicles with higher idle times, thus more regeneration events, may see the oil level rise in the engine due to this. Of course, the oil is not actually multiplying; fuel is just being added to the oil and it appears that the engine oil level is rising. We do not want to see fuel exceeding any more than 6% of the combined mixture. To ensure that this doesn’t happen, customers should change their engine oil at the recommended intervals. Per the Owner’s Manual, the Oil/Oil Filter change interval is 5,000 miles or 200 engine hours (whichever comes first) for vehicles with high idle times. If the oil is changed by hours, customers can easily avoid this potential problem.

Another way to ensure this issue is avoided is to make sure the engines are updated to the most recent calibration per TSB 08-13-02 or 08-13-03 (depending on truck build date). This calibration removes the ability of the engine to regenerate at idle.
cucalene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2008, 08:32 PM   #2
Bill-N-Donna
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Shore
Posts: 5,978
M.O.C. #7110
Thanks for the information. I’m new to owning a diesel and my intentions are to keep the oil changed on a regular basis.
Bill-N-Donna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 02:47 AM   #3
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 19,816
M.O.C. #2839
That is excellent information. We have noted our 6.4L "making oil" Unfortunately our dealer here in Florida told us that Ford put a hold on that TSB as it was causing problems. We do change our oil at the 5K intervals. The above post is worth printing out and showing to your Ford Dealer next time you are in as many of them have no clue. A good test is to tell the service manager that you have noted the truck "making oil" if you get a blank stare...they have no clue..
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 03:29 AM   #4
Bruce Lenhardt
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Grain valley
Posts: 356
M.O.C. #5098
Send a message via ICQ to Bruce Lenhardt
Great information. Thanks for posting it. I too, change my oil at 5K miles as recommended by the service manual for heavy duty use.
Bruce Lenhardt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 05:36 AM   #5
stiles watson
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Leona
Posts: 6,382
M.O.C. #2059
I have assumed heavy usage and changed every 5000 miles also. Good info, thanks.
stiles watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 01:39 PM   #6
adelmoll
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Silver Springs
Posts: 2,873
M.O.C. #2716
We are from the "Old School" and still change shortly after 3000 miles, but thanks. I will print this out for my DH

Helen
adelmoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 03:39 PM   #7
kmh3212
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buford
Posts: 285
M.O.C. #6735
On the 2008 Ford Superduty with the 6.4 diesel the normal duty oil change is 10,000 miles or 200 hours of operation. Pulling a Montana is considered severe duty with a 5000 mile oil change interval. I always went with a 3000 mile oil change interval on my 1999 F350 but my new 2008 F450 I try to change the oil at 5000 miles due to severe service. This new motor holds 15 quarts of a new heavier duty CJ-4 API rated oil. I think 3000 is too early and I would be throwing away perfectly good oil.
Oil analysis is a program I might look at in the future. The big diesel fleets do this as a method to get all the useful life out of their oil and engines. These commercial engines can go 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles before a rebuild.
kmh3212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2008, 03:14 AM   #8
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 19,816
M.O.C. #2839
Just a word on the frequency of oil changes for the 08 6.4L. We do follow the "severe" rating since we tow a lot and change every 5K miles and it will not hurt to change every 3K miles. we did have the oil analyized at the 10K change because it was offered by the dealer at a very reasonable cost and I was curious. The result was that the oil was in very good shape and really did not need to be changed. Interesting information but we will stay with the 5K change interval.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2008, 04:01 AM   #9
Delaine and Lindy
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Linden
Posts: 1,890
M.O.C. #6650
In a past life I drove a big Truck and our oil change interval was 15,000 miles and of course we had the oil analyzed and it always came back in excellent shape. Do you think towing a gross weight 80,000 is severe? Well the company increased the oil changes to 20,000 and the oil was still analyzed and showed the same on each test. I was driving I averaged 2,500 miles a week and most miles were under load. The oil change interval is something we have always done, it wasn't a problem when oil and filters were cheap. But it todays prices I really think its a waste of money, and its now known that the oil change interval is to often.

I change oil at 10,000 miles, now if I was towing everyday under a load, such as commerical hauling (Hot Shoting) I still would change at 10,000. Now if you want to know for sure what your oil is doing then have it analyzed then you will know for sure.

As for the engine making oil, I have never seen that problem? If my engine starts making oil I will know for sure there is a problem and it shouldn't happen. However I guess some Diesel engines have a different Regen process, but if fuel is getting into oil that can't be good for the engine. Oh well again its choice and each person can make that choice, but when oil changes are getting close to $100.00 for oil and filter change I tend to go a little longer. But if your setting in one location 5 or 6 months at a time your aren't getting very many miles a year and will have to change 1 or 2 times a year, so I guess the cost isn't to bad. But what about a waste of energy? GBY....
Delaine and Lindy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2008, 04:05 AM   #10
exav8tr
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Casa Grande
Posts: 5,369
M.O.C. #6333
Rich, when I was flying piston powered airplanes, on every oil change we sent our oil in for analysis, however, they were looking for pieces of metal in the oil or shavings or anything else that would tell how the engine was holding up. As I recall, and I may be wrong, they weren't concerned how the oil was holding up only how the engine was doing. Is this what you were referring to? I would like to do that with my Duramax also but didn't know it was available thru dealers. I guess I should ask at the next oil change....
exav8tr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2008, 05:32 AM   #11
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 19,816
M.O.C. #2839
They look for everything. This was a special offer through the dealer. They did not do it just offered a special price. I agree with Lindy. I do not believe that we work our diesels hard enough to warrant a change every 4 or 5K miles. Old habits and beliefs are hard to change. I do it to satisfy the conditions of the Ford warranty. I drive my bus at home a lot harder than we drive this Ford and the change interval on the bus is 10 K miles.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2008, 09:03 AM   #12
Rondo
Site Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Omaha
Posts: 6,042
M.O.C. #7560
I'd like to get my Duramax oil analyzed also just to see if it really needs the changing when the computer on the dash says it does! Or if the service manager is just pulling my leg on the mileage deal. I change mine about every 7-8000 miles anyway but I'm not towing the Monte all the time either!

Phil-- I didn't do much of the piston powered analyzations in the S.O.A.P. lab when I worked it as a jetmech at Offutt but ran samples for all of the "Hog Noses", tankers, and "Looking Glass" birds for the 55th Air Wing there while stationed there! Great duty! Had a trailer on the flight line and SOAP lab was set up in the livingroom! Grounded "Glass" on numerous occasions due to high iron or copper content in the samples! Really ticked off a few pilots but always got an engined changed when the General on the flight found out the consequences possible!
Rondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2008, 02:22 PM   #13
TLightning
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kville
Posts: 2,786
M.O.C. #7871
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Rondo

I'd like to get my Duramax oil analyzed also just to see if it really needs the changing when the computer on the dash says it does! Or if the service manager is just pulling my leg on the mileage deal. I change mine about every 7-8000 miles anyway but I'm not towing the Monte all the time either!

My dealer swears by the DIC and I know he's not after my money, because I change it myself. Like you, I do it around 7,500 the DIC usually says I have about 25% of time remaining at that point.
TLightning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2008, 12:15 PM   #14
skypilot
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 1,106
M.O.C. #1846
Google or visit http://www.blackstone-labs.com/. This is just one of several labs that are constantly being written about on the various diesel forums. For 22 or 23 dollars they will do an analysis and tell you metals by % in your oil, dilution by diesel, and also the weight of oil you are running (i.e. 15W40 diluted with 5% diesel). Also give you the TBN (the addititives) left in your oil -- these are the wear controllers, etc that make it a CJ vs a CH or other oil spec.

Many diesel drivers are running synthetic oils in their trucks and relying on the oil analysis to determine when to change the oil out. With the additional of the EGR and resultant soot in the oil, some of this is changing. I'm reading a lot of new posts were people are changing the oil much sooner than they used to because the soot is an abrasive in the oil -- This is my own PERSONAL opinion but I don't see how adding soot to the oil can be good for the long term use of the engine. Hopefully we will get the miles out of these that the pre-egr engines were getting and, if by changing oil sooner does that, I'm currently all for it.

skypilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2008, 07:16 AM   #15
Fordzilla
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Marcus
Posts: 1,032
M.O.C. #2819
Send a message via MSN to Fordzilla
I have used Blackstone for years and regularly go 10k between oil changes on my '06 diesel. I am not a full timer so my vehicle isn't always pulling a load, but the tests still comes back with great results. The first couple of times it showed some wear which was normal for a new engine breaking in and has since settled down to a normal wear routine. They track your past samples and record them for future use. If they see a pattern they will warn you about something to look at before it becomes a problem. The test results will show your past results compared to the current one so you can look at what they are seeing and why they are making recommendations to look at certain parts that may be wearing out prematurely.
Fordzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 12:38 PM   #16
sreigle
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
Good information. Thanks. On my Ford 6.0 I changed oil at 5k miles when using dino oil, then went to 10k miles when I switched to synthetic. Never had a problem but now I wonder if I was just lucky. I've done the same with this Dodge, 5k with dino, 10k with synthetic. But I have noticed an increase in oil level on the dipstick. The one time I took it in to be checked for that reason the dealer didn't find any problem and tried to tell me the Fram filter I was using must be smaller than the Mopar filter (it isn't). The increase is not the initial reading, it's some miles after an oil change. Now I'm wondering if your explanation is what I'm seeing.

Even though diesel is fuel, it essentially is an oil. Is this situation really going to cause a problem?
sreigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 02:24 PM   #17
TLightning
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kville
Posts: 2,786
M.O.C. #7871
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sreigle

Good information. Thanks. On my Ford 6.0 I changed oil at 5k miles when using dino oil, then went to 10k miles when I switched to synthetic.
Don't know about Dodge, but GM says the type of oil (dino or synthetic) plays no part in determining when to change the oil.
TLightning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 05:06 PM   #18
sreigle
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
I believe Dodge says nothing about it so that defaults to the same as GM. The only thing my manual for the Dodge says is to not use synthetic prior to 30,000 miles or the engine will not properly break in. I switched at about 31k. But that tells me there is considerably less friction with synthetic, which I believe to be a good thing once the engine is broken in.

Good point about the mfr statements.
sreigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
oil change intervals diesel ray fischer Tow Vehicles & Towing 14 09-23-2011 09:21 AM
New Ford Diesel hazmic Tow Vehicles & Towing 46 08-25-2011 03:22 PM
Ford 6.0 Diesel daneboy Tow Vehicles & Towing 26 07-23-2011 06:45 PM
Body Style Change on Ford 350? kwolff7 Tow Vehicles & Towing 5 03-16-2008 06:36 AM
Diesel Oil Change Jeff Heiser Tow Vehicles & Towing 24 03-26-2006 09:16 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×