Towing OK?

[Art-n-Marge]

Thanks for the clarification, Bill. Yes, I was too general but I was talking about my particular truck.

[barmar]

Art et al:
Thanks again for the helpful comments. I just weighed my truck and here are the numbers:
Front Axle: 4466 lbs
Rear Axle: 3454 lbs
Entire Truck: 7942 lbs ( I note there's a difference of about 22 lbs when you add front and rear axles based on the actual numbers but lets say 7931 lbs to split the difference)
Based on this, 7931 lbs and the GVWR of 9900 lbs, my max payload would then be 1969 lbs (9900-7931)---wow, not much to play with here and what a surprise!!
Also, the truck was not loaded per a normal RV outing so I calculated the extra weight including my lady, golf clubs, carts and assorted odds and sods at about 270 lbs giving a new truck weight of 8201 lbs (7931+270) leaving a new max payload of 1699 lbs whicn is another big wow!!!
So, if I'm correct this calculated payload of 1699 lbs equates to the max effective pin weight for my truck.
Would appreciate your review of these numbers---have I done the math correctly? This result is a bit of a shocker since I thought my truck had a better potential, especially since the placarded cargo capacity is 2790 lbs but I guess this is based on a bare bones truck and dry!!
I guess a Montana 5th is not a player with this truck---so I either set my sights lower on a 5th or get another truck, a dually. Ouch!!
Cheers, Barry

[sreigle]

Also, did the truck have a full fuel tank? If not, there's more weight.

Barry, where did you find a scale that gives weights to the nearest pound? Every truck stop scale and farmers' co-op elevator scale I've used give weights to the nearest 20 lbs. I'd love to find one that goes to the nearest pound. Would appreciate some idea where to find one. Thanks.

I didn't take a calculator to your numbers but they look pretty reasonable to me. When people do the weighing they're usually in for several surprises. I sure was. Our 2007 3400RL weighs in at 14,620 with pinweight of 2860. Our prior Montana, a 2003 3295RK (heaviest pinweight in that model year) weighed 14,360 with pinweight of 3300. Quite an eye opener. We do run heavily loaded and those weights were with 2/3 fresh water with all other tanks empty.

[barmar]

Steve-Yup, full tank. Don't know the tlerances on the weigh scale--the weights were in Kilograms and I converted to lbs--suspect the scales are plus/minus 10 kilos or about plus/minus 22 lbs but nevertheless, the end result is still surprising, Plan to weigh truck again at another scale just to confiem numbers.
Barry

[Art-n-Marge]

Way to go barmar. It sure looks like you understand how this works now. Looking at the paper numbers and measuring actual numbers can sure make a difference.

Here is where you need to think about taking advantage of the trailers CCC. Load the rig with most weight over the wheels. Do NOT put everything up front in the bedroom, the front storage or the garage. You might have to do what I do. I carry most items in the center of the rig or even in the living room or don't bring them. That helps the pin weight and thereby the RAWR. Keep your tanks empty and use public (ugh) or restaurant restrooms so you don't have to use your tanks. and shop for food WHEN you arrive and set up, don't carry all of it with you. Just some things to think about.

That's a good idea to reweigh your truck for curiosity sake, but that might prove futile. Do you believe these numbers or the new ones? Go with your head and your heart.

[richfaa]

We found that the CC listed on the door of the 08 Ford was accurate for the truck as we drove it off the dealers lot and directly to a scale for a weigh in.However after adding hitch and all the other camping stuff, myself and spouse (the truck came with a full tank of fuel) then another weigh in it was a far different story. Thanks to the stimulating discussions on this forum, as well as others, We purchased a truck that would be within all spec's.

[deadeyenevermisses]

Art, maybe I fumbled on the info hand-over. My allowed CGVWR is 23.5K but my actual scale weight is 24,840. All this despite the fact that I'm 80 pounds under on the front axle, 500 under on the rear axle, and both RV axles are under the 7k limit by 820 & 760. Go figger.

[sreigle]

Barry, that makes sense. The scale tolerance could account for the difference between total truck weight and the sum of the axle weights, I would think.

[Art-n-Marge]

Yup, Deadeye... I have heard of that happening but you are off by 1,300 lbs, ouch! You can talk to the scale operator and bring it to their attention. They are responsible for the accuracy of their scales, but before you do that one must understand the relationships of the weight ratings. Each individual weight might satisfy the maximum for that weight, but it's the combined weights that are priority. In order, they are CGWR, then TV GVWR, then RV GVWR.

For example, using my truck as an example: FAWR is 5600, and RAWR is 6100. Even if the individual totals equal 11,700, the GVWR is 10,000. What it means is that if I have a trailer and cargo at 6100 lbs at the Rear Axle, my front axle can only have 3,900 lbs in order to satisfy the GVWR.

Same with the CGVWR. My truck's CGVWR is 23,000. Per the specs I have read it is capable of towing a 15,200 lbs fifth wheel. But if my truck is loaded so its GVWR is at the maximum 10,000 lbs, then I must keep my RV at 13,200. If I have a 15,200 lb trailer, I must unload my truck so it weighs 7,800. My RV actually weighs no more than 13,000 so I am able to load my truck to 10000 lbs and still be within the weight ratings.

I may have mentioned my plans for increasing my truck's GVWR. I am doing this by added Original Ford springs which will increase my GVWR to 11,500 - I might even consider getting the truck recertified to get a new pillar sticker. But while the GVWR increases 1,500 lbs, the CGVWR only raises about 500 lbs to 23,500 (that's just the way it is). I hope you recognize a pattern that a large increase at ONE POINT, only gives a slight increase in the overall rating. The 1,500 lbs increase will allow me to carry more cargo in the truck bed and the trailer to increase the pin weight but I must still remain well within the GVWR for the truck and the trailer, and the overall CGWR.

To conclude with my honest opinion (based on fact) - Over the years I have spent much time on this and learned that seeing one number that I like will always be affected by other numbers. I have tried to spend a lot of time helping friends and relatives understand this, because I have seen and heard of tire problems, suspension problems, premature wear, and it ultimately gets caused by this. Just because you haven't had a problem, doesn't mean you are not in compliance. Just because you add one item to your rig to help one area, does not mean you are compliant everywhere. The TOTAL weight will always be more important than any individual weight rating.

[MacDR50]

GVWR on the GM's is with full gas and fluids. Unless you have really added after market there is something wrong with the numbers. The door sticker takes into account the options added at the factory, body type etc. I suggest you get the truck weighed again at a different scale.

[Art-n-Marge]

Actually the GVWR includes fuel, fluids, cargo, people, food, drink and anything that puts weight in the truck. It's just that whatever you put in the truck must not exceed the FAWR, RAWR, GVWR or CGWR. For example, it there is too much load for the GVWR, then put the overage in the trailer as long as it does not exceed the CGWR.

MacDR50, I think you are thinking of ULWR (Unloaded weight rating). Fuel and fluids are typically included in this. For a vehicle the ULWR includes EVERYTHING required for the vehicel to run. It is slightly different for a trailer, only the items installed at the factory are included in the ULWR - not extra items installed by the dealer or by you or any fluids other that what is provided at the factory (like refrigerant).

[sreigle]

Art, I think you meant GVW includes all those things. GVWR is the rating and that is fixed, regardless of cargo load. Not a criticism, just clarifying.

I think we're talking apples and oranges on the weight difference. The one I was referring to when I said the scale tolerance could account for the difference has to do with the weight of the truck sans Montana rather than truck and Montana together. That difference is just 22 lbs.

[deadeyenevermisses]

Too weird!! I don't know if this is a scale difference or what, but I'm up here in Alberta and there's a government scale open 24/7 to the public, so I drive my "unhooked" TV up there to weigh the rear axle to determine my pin weight. The change in total gross weight was 3445#, BUT the front axle weight shifted forward by 218#. I'm still as dumb as I once was...............

[Art-n-Marge]

Steve, Thanks for the clarification. Yes, The GVWR is the highest acceptable GVW that is recommended for the whole vehicle.

deadeyenevermisses, I would consider that good news. This Gov scale seems to give you more acceptable numbers and aren't as wierd as the other place. And now you know why we go round and round and round on documented weights, versus actual weights and the documented weights can be off and so can the measured weights because I do not believe all scales are 100% accurate. There are so many factors that can screw with your/our mind(s).

Here's a bizarre thought, maybe at that other scale they are seedy and they want the weight measurements to be off by higher percentages as you get heavier. It could mean overcharging the customers that pay based on weight if they are measuring higher than it really is. I better not start. Or maybe that scale just needs to calibrate their scales.

The good news is that you are not as bad off as you think but you really don't know. An ironic way to look at is go to different scales and pick the one that satisfies you the most... uhhhh, what?. Naw, not really. I would be confused too. I would believe a government scale is kept more accurate.

I'm weary. I need to stop now.

Give yourself way more credit. You aren't dumb any more. You are smart enough to know this is too wierd.

[sreigle]

Richard, an increase of 218 pounds when hitched as opposed to unhitched is too big to be explained by the tolerance of the scale.

In your case, I'd bet most of that is a legitimate weight shift when hitched. Most hitches are installed up to two inches forward of the rear axle centerline and are not supposed to be any farther back than directly over the rear axle centerline.

If yours is forward of the axle center, then part of the pinweight will be applied to the front axle.

I'm not an expert but this makes sense to me.

3445 is a pretty hefty pinweight. Maybe you have a generator and/or other heavy items up front. Our 3400 has a pinweight of 2860. But our 2003 3295RK had pinweight of 3300. On the 3295, because of the weight in the rear kitchen, the axles are farther back, which shifts more weight to the pin.

[Delaine and Lindy]

We have owned the 2500HD's and the GCWR was 9200 lbs and we have owned several 3500HDS DRW and the GCWR was 11,400 lbs and the Freighliner we have now the GCWR is 19,500 lbs. Most 2500HD's just have a problem with the pin weight. They pull as good as the 3500HD's its just the pin weight. I have found the Cat Scales to be the most accurate. Their weights are garranted, when driving OTR I used Cat Scales thru out the lower 48. GBY...

[helmick]

When my Chevy 2500HD 9,200 Lbs. GVWR is loaded my truck is 9,620Lbs. My hitch weight is 2,480 Lbs.
My axels are under both under GAWR. The hitch adds 120 Lbs. to the front axel and 2,360 Lbs to the rear axel.
My next truck will be a 3500 with dual wheels.

[Art-n-Marge]

Delaine and Lindy - I hope you meant GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating - TV only) not GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating - TV and towable?!

Helmick. I think you are trying to say your Chevy 2500 GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight RATING) is 9,200 and the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight - actual weight measured at a scale) is 9620 meaning you are over by 420 lbs.

A 3500 with single (GVWR 9900) or dual wheels (more than 10000) will solve your problem for sure. The differential will also make a difference, too. But if Chevy/GMC is anything like Ford, then you only get one choice for the differential on the 1 ton single rear wheel. The duallies have more options for diffs and that's why they can tow so much more.

[KathyandDave]

After my explorations of the MOC and elsewhere, here's how I think about weights. I think of two main areas: the limits of my Ontario general operator's license, which is 11,000kg (24,200lbs); and the demonstrable safety of the entire rig (I could think of this part as litigation-proofing).
We buy an annual permit for the entire rig (vehicle registration, not to be confused with a commercial permit) consistent with my operator's license (I follow OntMont's idea and reduce the permit to the weight of the TV during non-camping season). Either the license or the permit weight will get me into trouble at a weigh scale, should I be pulled over, so I stay within that limit.
For the safety of the rig, I look at the various weight ratings and balance things out to stay within them. From the TV's manual (not marketing), I get that the GCWR is 10,659kg (23,500lbs), which is pretty close to my license/permit.
From the TV's door sticker, I get that my front axle is rated for 2177kg (4800lbs), the rear for 3720kg (8200lbs) and the gross for 5171kg (11,400lbs) (i.e., my off-season permit amount).
I have weighed the TV by itself with me, full fuel (biggie-size tank) and some miscellaneous stuff on the Guv'mint scales (when they are unattended) and get 2100kg (4620lbs) on the front axle and 1730kg (3806lbs) on the rear axle. I notice that once the DW, the cat and the dog get in the TV, we tip over the rating for the front axle, so I have to be careful about filling the big tank.
From reading the MOC, I've learned that the Monty's axles are rated IN CANADA for 2,727kg (6,000lbs) each, 7,000lbs in the USA (I have yet to crawl under to confirm this). From the Monty's stickers (as Art noted), the GWR is 6570kg (14455lbs) IN CANADA.
On a medium-heavy day, after weighing the TV and Monty together, axle by axle (pairing the Monty's axles), with all of our stuff (but only half a tank of fuel), the front axle was 2160kg (4752lbs), the rear TV axle was 2970kg (6534lbs) and the Monty axles together were 4930kg (10864lbs). The grand total was 10,090kg (22,198lbs), so I've met the license/permit requirement. The front axle is only 48lbs below its rating and would have been a bit over had the tank been full. The rear axle is well within its rating. Subtracting the previously weighed unloaded rear axle from the loaded axle weight gets a pin weight of 1230kg (2728lbs)(which would really be a bit more, given the reduced fuel load). Adding the pin weight to the Monty axle(s) weight gets 6160kg (13,552lbs) for the Monty, which is just under its rating (but again, should really be a bit more). The Monty's axles are within the Canadian rating. The pin weight ratio is the pin weight over the total trailer weight (I think - is this correct?), which comes to 20%. So, everything, except the TV front axle, is within limits. I decide to accept that the front axle's tires will wear faster than I like.
From all of these numbers, I calculate tire inflation pressures, but that's been talked about in another thread. I hope this helps others think through their own circumstances.

[deadeyenevermisses]

.............and if all this weren't enough, to make those of you like me who are 1500# or so over GCVWR; I ran into a guy in the Fam Camp at Malmstrom AFB who was towing a VERY large SOB with a 2001 3500 Duramax DRW. Basically the same truck as mine. I peeked at his RV GVWR and it read 18,800. I asked him if he'd ever weighed his rig, all up, on the road............"Nah, he said". .