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Old 06-13-2009, 02:16 PM   #1
Desert RVer
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Autoswitchover propane reg.. not working right.

I've got something goofy going on on my auto switchover propane regulator but it isn't consistent enough for me to figure out whether I have both sides not working properly or just one. I've messed with it enough to the point I'm toitally confused. But here is what I think I remember. Have stove running on all three burners, both tank valves open, auto switchover regulator handle pointed at drivers side tank to start. Turn valve off on drivers side tank to simulate running empty on that tank. Auto switchover regulator switches to passenger side tank sometimes ok and other times get reduced pressure. Then after fiddling with things for awhile I can start on the paasenger side tank with the lever toward the passenger side tank and shut that side off and sometimes it will switch properly to the drivers side tank with full pressure and other times with reduced pressure. I fiddle with the valves and disconnect the hoses in some pattern and then I can get back to ground zero. I'm very confused about what it takes to get things back to a normal operation.

I have the Marshall 255-00 auto switchover regulator and the Red 18 PSI(Unknown manufacturer) on the passenger side. I've read all the previous threads on this and it appears I should replace the red regulator with a Marshall 30 PSI regulator. But I can't get consistent enough results to figure out which side is really the culprit or if both sides are causing problems. The switchover regulator indicator has shown all red, all green and 1/2 and 1/2 at various times.

I've read all the application info at:

http://www.shleggitt.com/edlees/

and while helpful none describes the symptoms I'm having. I'm really confused. Help?
 
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Old 06-13-2009, 03:12 PM   #2
Desert RVer
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It is a Marshall model 254-00 regulator. The 255-00 includes the vertical mounting bracket
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:08 PM   #3
William H. Collier
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Change the red one on the passenger side, they are notorious for going bad. Mine showed half green and half red when on that tank. It then started leaking with a full tank. They are cheap, if I remember right they are less than 10 bucks.
Bill
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Old 06-13-2009, 06:40 PM   #4
Desert RVer
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According to the Marshall application info it is recommended that I use a Marshall Part Number C6121#2049 30 PSI regulator. I have been unable to find anyone who sells this.
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Old 06-14-2009, 06:33 AM   #5
William H. Collier
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I replaced mine with another red one which are available at most dealerships.
Bill
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:09 PM   #6
Desert RVer
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Mr. Collier,

Do you recall what the psi spec is on the replacement? The current original one is 18 psi.
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:15 AM   #7
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Just had a long conversation with the head engineer at Marshall Gas Controls. Yes, the Marshall C6121#2049 High Pressure regulator preset at 30 PSIG is what they recommend for dual tank LPG systems where the tanks are physically remote from each other. A high pressure (Red Colored) single stage regulator is required on the remote tank as well as the automatic switchover dual stage regulator. This remote high pressure regulator needs to be at lease 18PSI on the Montana 3400RL but Marshall recommends the fixed 30PSI regulator they sell. He also suggested that the problem I am having is probably due to a leak somewhere in the system but probably in the remote tank Chinese red regulator that Montana used on this 2006 3400RL.The reason I'm getting the strange indications on the indicator is that I'm not allowing the overflow check valves time to reset which may take minutes. Also a leak in the remote lpg lines or regulator may cause the overflow check valves to always come into play and take a really long time to reset. That kind of explains why I was getting random indications and not knowing exactly what it took to get things back to normal. Also every gas using device needs to be shut off in the RV in order to get the overflow check valves to reset. If there is a leak anywhere they never reset or at least take a long time to reset. The overflow check valves are inside the Marshall OPD connection hoses supplied with the 2006 3400RL. They are green knobs on the Marshall quick connect OPD hoses that have the check valves as well as identifying tags from Marshall.

After many calls I have finally found RV dealers who know what a Marshall C6121#2049 regulator is and carry the part or can get it. Other brand regulators probably will do the job as long as they are in the 18 to 30 PSIG range. I'm going to try to use what Marshall recommends so I hopefully don't have to deal with this issue again.

I'm going to do some more checking for leaks before I order the replacement regulator. Right now I would guess the cheap Red Chinese regulator is leaking although I haven't smelled any gas.
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:50 AM   #8
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I've checked for leaks with soapy water on all fittings and regulators on both tanks and haven't found any leaks especially on or around the red regulator. Specifically checked the seep hole on the regulator as well. No observable leaks. For those of you who have found leaks on this red regulator, where did they leak?
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:21 PM   #9
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Ok, I've messed with this problem to where I think I have found some consistency. And I did find a very small leak in behind the Red regulator where it attachés to the crossover black pipe but it was a very slow leak but... at least now it does automatically switch over properly from tank to tank. Very very hard to see and find. Used a pressure gauge in the line to detect a very slow loss of pressure when all appliances were off. This may have been causing the problem of not switching properly because it does correctly do that now but.... Something still isn't right. And I can repeat this consistently now. Starting will all appliances off and both tanks shut off, I can get the full green indicator no matter which way the lever is set. Now if I set the lever to the remote tank, passenger side, while still having the full green indicator as I turn on a stove burner or two the Red indicator immediately shows half way down. Turning on more appliances such as more burners and the water heater still leaves the indicator red half way down but ALL BURNERS ARE GETTING A FULL SHOT OF FUEL AS WELL AS THE WATER HEATER IGNITING AND RUNNING PROPERLY. Ok, no functional problem just an indicator problem. Close the valve on the remote tank, simulating running out of gas. The main auto switching regulator switches properly to the left side tank(main) and the indicator now shows full red as it should. Turn the lever to the main tank and the indicator shows full green as it should and all appliances have kept running during the automatic switchover. Now turn the valve back on on the reserve tank, turn the main lever back to the reserve tank and get the half red indication again but everything keeps running. Move the lever to the main tank gives a full green indication. Leaving the lever set for the main tank, turn off the main tanks valve simulating it running out and the auto switchover correct switches to the reserve tank and all appliances remain burning. The indicator shows full red as it should. Then turn the lever to the remote tank and the 1/2 red indication is back. Not the way the manual says it is supposed to work.

So what does a half red indication mean? Low pressure? Remote tank regulator (Red) not providing the full 18 PSI pressure or adequate volume? Something blocking the line from the remote cylinder or the auto switchover regulator remote port is partially blocked or not indicating properly? At least I can now repeat all this consistently.

Anyone have anything like this occur?
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:01 PM   #10
OntMont
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It may be that you are having more than one problem at the same time. From your description, I am wondering if the excess flow valve that is built into the tank has been activated and is causing the low pressure from that tank. These flow control valves can be activated by a sudden surge of gas flow, that is what the red regulator is supposed to prevent. Now, when Marshall suggested that the red regulator was leaking, is it possible that they meant an internal leak? If the red regulator was leaking internally so that it was not performing its intended function, then maybe that explains how the remote tank excess flow valve is being activated.

Try shutting everything off, close the tank valves and disconnect then, then start from scratch, being careful to open the tank valve just barely enough to get the gas flowing, let it go for a while to build up pressure in the lines, then open up fully.

If this does correct the problem, then replacing the red regulator should fix the problem, but it is always a good idea to open the tank valve very slowly to avoid any chance of triggering the excess flow valve.

Usually in these situations, it is the furnace that acts up because there is not enough fuel pressure to supply the high demand of the furnace burner.

Just some thoughts, may be barking up the wrong tree altogether.

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Old 06-15-2009, 04:48 PM   #11
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Ok, thanks for the response. Since I can get the green indication from both lever positions with both tanks on, I would thnk that the overflow valves have reset even if they were triggerd. And I now do get the proper switchover with adequate pressure which I wasn't getting before. Since I fixed the very small leak that problem seems to have gone away. But now the only problem I'm experiencing is the indicator isn't doing what it is supposed to do. However, your comments have caused me to think of two other things I can try to try to isolate this.

1.) Switch tanks from side to side to see if the indicator problem follows the tank.

2.) Try running the furnace to see if it will light. This was when and how I first realized I had a problem. It wouldn't light after a auto switchover.

The overflow check valves are also in the Marshal hose connections, which may be acting up too?

Will report back test results.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:23 PM   #12
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Ok, more data. I'm finding that getting reliable data is difficult. But....

1.) I have found that the problem does not follow the tank. I'm very sure of this.

2.) Apparently my just running the water heater and stove burners isn't a very good test to determine if the auto switchover is working right. New results:

When I run the water heater and the three burner stove at full open and then try to start the furnace it won't start after an auto switchover to the passenger side tank. But if I move the lever on the drivers side auto switchover regulator to the passenger side tank the furnace will light but the flame on the three burners are reduced a bit. But they continue to be lit along with the water heater while the furnace lights and runs.

Another indicator is when the lever is in the passenger side position the indicator for the passenger side tank shows all red even though the burners, water heater and furnace are all running at the same time off of that tank.

Now, can I draw any conclusions from all this new data?

I think I can safely draw the conclusion that I'm not getting enough pressure from the passenger side tank after the auto switchover. But why moving the lever on the auto switchover regulator to that side slightly increases the pressure is a bit of a mystery to me. Do I have a problem on both the auto regulator and the passenger side regulator or is it just the passenger side regulator? I think I can draw the conclusion that the regulator on the passenger side isn't providing adequate pressure. So probably the best first step is to see if replacing the passenger side regulator fixes the whole problem but if not then replace the auto switchover regulator too to see if it takes replacement of both to fix the whole problem. Am I drawing good conclusions here with the new data? Comments? Or am I jumping to contusions? :-)

I need to order the Marshal 30 PSI regulator from a local dealer but I haven't found a local RV dealer yet who has one in stock but they can get one in one day out of Portland, OR from NTP Distributors. And I haven't found a single RV parts dealer on the internet who even lists one of these. I find that a bit weird.

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Old 06-17-2009, 02:40 PM   #13
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I installed a new Marshall C2621#2049 regulator and a new Marshall hose today on the remote tank side of the RV. Didn’t solve my problem. Same symptoms and problems. All that is left that can be the problem is the Marshall 254 Auto Switchover regulator. @#$%^&
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:46 AM   #14
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Have been in contact with Ed Lee Sr, Application Manager at Marshall Gas controls. After some more checking he is sending me a new 254 regulator and wants me to return my current one. At present he thinks that oil has enteredthe 254 regulator and swelled one of the "O" rings but he will disassemble the original unit upon return to determine the exact problem. He mentioned that some manufacturers are not properly storing the black crossover pipe after cutting the threads on the ends of the pipe. If the pipes are not stored vertically after the threads are cut, the cutting oil enters the pipe, remains inside and causes these kinds of problems later on. I did notice a little oil inside the original remote cylinder's 18 PSI regulator I replaced with the Marshall recommended 30 PSI regulator. He will test my original 254 regulator to see if that has caused the problem. He also did mention that Keystone/Montana has gone back to using a hose instead of a black pipe crossover. Is this true on the current Montana's? I should receive the new 254 regulator from Marshall today and might also receive a new 254 regulator that I purchased separately today. I won't get the old 254 sent back to Marshall for testing until next week but should be able to install and test the replcaement 254 regulator sooner than that. Will publish results as soon as they are available. This problem gets more convoluted each day. I'm not going to be very happy if this whole problem has been caused by sloppy Montana factory pipe storing procedures. We will see.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:34 PM   #15
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A new Marshall 254 Regulator arrived here Saturday that I had ordered before I started talking to Marshall directly. The 254 that was supposed to have been sent Fed Ex overnight from Marshall hasn't arrived yet. I removed the original Marshall Auto-Switchover regulator that came with the RV from Montana and installed the new one I received yesterday. Problem solved. Haven't noticed any oil in the original 254 but did notice a fairly large spec of something on the end of the crossover pipe brass fitting what appeared like it might have been big enough to about half block the gas orifice. Tried to retrieve it but it disappeared under the RV never to be found again. #$%^& Now I don't know if that was partially blocking the line and causing all the problems or whether the original Marshall 254 went bad due to oil in the line. Not going to put the original old one back on to find out since everything is working properly now. Marshall can test it. Also found out that one has to be careful what green knob tank hose connection one uses(buys). The Marshall ones have a gold tag on them and are identified as made by Marshall Gas Controls. Then there are Chinese ones that have a white tag made by a company called "Chant". Marshall tells me that the check balls on the Chant hoses are made of rubber while the Marshall check balls are made of brass. Supposedly the rubber check balls have caused RV manufacturers and owners lots of troubles. Both of the Green Knob hoses on our Montana were made by Marshall Gas Controls and had the gold tag. This is good. Will report what Marshall finds on on their inspection of the original 254 Auto-Switchover regulator when it is available. BTW, the new Marshall 30 PSI single stage regulator I just installed earlier on the remote tank side was made in Italy. The original 18P SI one I removed and replaced was made in India (not Chinese) and probably is still good.

Bottom Line: Have a working LPG gas system again on both tanks.
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Old 06-21-2009, 03:40 PM   #16
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Thanks for the update. I have been following your plight since mine is having the same symptoms. I have replaced the red regulator and the hose to the tank on that side. I guess I will try the switch over valve next. I'm curious to know what Marshall's findings are on your olds one.
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Old 06-21-2009, 06:58 PM   #17
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wingerphil,

I found the whole piping/regulator system is a bit hard to troubleshoot because there are so many variables all occurring at once. I did find out that one can really draw incorrect conclusions if either one of the check valves in the green knob hose connections gets activated. I found that especially on the remote tank side one needs to open the tank valve very slowly or the check valve will activate. However, I have found that it is beast to not turn on any valve if there are any appliances running such as the burners on the stove, water heater or furnace. This makes things really sensitive. Also the lever on the auto-switchover regulator is supposed to be set to the full tank when any the other runs empty and before a new tank is removed and re-installed. All these restrictions(proper procedures) have me very confused right now because for three years I didn't know these proper procedures needed to be followed. And for three years I just removed an empty tank, had it refilled and reinstalled it and never had a problem later. Then all of a sudden I started having problems. It really has me confused at the moment. It is really hard for me to believe that for three years I never changed a tank when one or more of the appliances was running but I suppose it is possible. And I never paid attention to how fast I turned on a tank valve. I know I wasn't paying attention at all to which way the lever was pointed or looking at the red/green indicator primarily because I couldn't see if it was green or red. Now whether failing to follow the correct procedures eventually caused my problem is an unknown at the moment. Presently one of life's mysteries. I am close to color blind and I never could tell whether the indicator was red or green. Now I use a flashlight on the indicator and I now can see if it is green or red or half way in between. Somehow with all this troubleshooting and replacing of regulators and hoses I am beginning to think I'm making this more complex than it really is. I suspect this will become clear again eventually.

The oil in the black pipe seemed like a real possibility until today when I changed regulators. I was about to install the new auto-crossover regulator when I noticed a black speck on the end of the black pipe brass fitting. I would describe it as maybe roughly 1/8" to 1/4" of irregular diameter and initially looked like a very thin slice of black paint. I tried to retrieve it off the end of the fitting and it disappeared and dropped down below the RV on the ground and I can't find it. I don't know when that speck appeared. I didn't notice it when I removed the old regulator and hose. Whether this showed up during all the disturbance of hooking up the new regulator and associated hoses or was initially there causing the problem or not, just isn't known now. I guess if Marshall tests the old regulator and finds that it is good then this fleck of paint partially blocking the line may have been the real problem. I hate unknowns.
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