It's not just Keystone... - Montana Owners Club

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-24-2005, 05:18 AM

Does any of the following sound familiar????

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quote:I have looked at 12 to 14 new XXXXX various models at three different dealers and noticed many defects that raised a product quality question. Entrance doors didn't fit properly; Wall paper was loose; Shower doors stuck and very difficult to open and close; Basement doors didn't close tightly or one had to shove the door in to close it; chair upholstery was loose or sagging, etc. Then I read the posting on this web forum about other issues owners were having with their unit; furnace wasn't installed correctly, slide outs mechanism wasn't working properly, loose linoleum, etc.

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quote:WE HAVE HAD OUR XXXX AND ABOUT 11,000 MILES. LEAKING BACK WINDOWS,BLANKS FALLING OFF HEATER AND BAD AXLE (ALKO SUCKS). I THINK FOR THE MONEY AND TODAYS LACK OF CRAFTMANSHIP IT IS WORTH THE PRICE BUT WON,T BUY ANOTHER XXXXXXXXX, BUT WERE BROKE ANYWAY. IF MONEY IS NOT AN OBJECT I,D GO WITH XXXXX XXXXXX BUT THERE NOT WHAT THEY USED TO BE. MY 2 CENTS WORTH

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quote:I too agree on the quality inspection issue. The first year or so of XXXXX popularity they were head & shoulders above most any out there especially in the price category. As time progressed and they were going like hotcakes they seem to have missed a few inspection stations as they are showing a lot of correctable defects on the lots. They shouldn't be like this whether it is factroy or dealer prep as that would make me walk out immediately. They should be presented in their sunday best ready to please a new owner. I personally shared this with XXXX at the Rally & he virtually blew me off even when I showed him what I meant in the display units at the Rally. crooked doors, mouldings cut short Mirrors hung crooked, flawed finishes etc. All he dwelled on is how they have almost doubled their production and can't build enough. That in a nutshell is what has happened the same as always,concentrate on quantity instead of quality typical sales attitude not much down the road foresight!!! We have a wonderful XXXXX XXXXX butttt It had many many flaws to be corrected before it was as it should have been when delivered! I honestly can't say enough positives about XXXX XXXXXX & his wonderful people at the warranty service depot at the factory because without them I would have been very nasty on their behalf (XXXXXXX that is) !! ImHO Love what you do & do what you love Rving that is !!!

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quote:I have several issues on my XXXX that have to be addressed. Shelf brackets in pantry fell off, pocket door came off track (fixed myself 1st time)it did it again and I will not fix it. Water leak in shower around drain. (Fixed that myself also), water leak from behind wall dripping in compartment on street side. This only leaks when shower is running but unable to determine where it is leaking. It looks like they will have to take whole shower stall out to figure that one out. As you can see, some things can be fixed yourself but we shouldn't have to. That's why they have a 2 year warranty. I could do the shelf brackets in the pantry too, but my philosophy is, let them do it. It's little things that aren't right and that comes with final inspection leaving the factory and also in dealer prep prior to you taking delivery. For the most part I am happy with my unit.

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quote:I have had some minor problems. Gray water valve from tub/sink leaking while shut. It was eventually replaced. P-trap for same leaking when tank gets full and backs up into the trap. Fresh water
tank gage not acurate. Outside shower hot/cold reversed. All have been
corrected. The most agravating issue...and very intermittent is the AC unit. The blower will not cycle on occasionally. It sounds like I have power to the unit as there is a slight hum but the blower does nothing. A relay was replaced and it tested ok when I got it home. Then, on our first trip since repair....the blower would not cyle on. The next day while camping...we tried again..and it came on. It has been working since then. I am conerned because of the intermittence. Thats it for now though.

You’re probably saying these are posts/replys about problems some of our MOC members are having with their Montanas or Mountaineers. Right? WRONG!!
Building the RV Related Links page I have found many RV owners forums and browsed through a lot of them. I was not surprised to find on nearly everyone of them were these type threads.
All of the above quoted posts/replys were copied from just one thread on an owners club forum not much different than the Montana Owners Club and NO it is not another Keystone product. AND, if you’ll take note most of the above problems can be attributed to poor Craftsmanship and Quality Control at the plant as well as poor pre-delivery inspections by the dealers.

I only brought this up to show that Keystone is not the only RV manufacturer with these kind of problems.

richfaa · 11-24-2005, 06:03 AM

That is exactly right Glenn. As I have said on MANY occasions quality in the RV industry is horrible.It is not just Keystone it IS all of them...However that should not make us feel any better nor is it a excuse. As long as the consumer continues to purchase these products accepting poor quality as "that's the way it is" nothing will improve.Every consumer should be holding the manufacturer responsible and accountable for the quality of the unit. The consumer should be flooding the manufacture with phone calls reporting EVERY quality issue.. sorry the quality issue get my Sicilian temper flaring

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-24-2005, 07:12 AM

I fully agree with you Rich but it ain't gonna happen. We must accept that the consumer is never going to change and get on with life. We live with it, we do our own PDI and refuse to take delivery until it's right or we just take it and fix it ourselves. As you said, "that's the way it is"!!! And may I add "that's the way it will always will be!

CmdrDewey · 11-24-2005, 08:52 AM

Well Glenn I respectfully disagree. This was the case with the auto industry years ago. Japanese cars were coming off the line with 2-5 manufacturing defects and US cars with 30-70. Buyers went foreign in droves and now the approximate count is US 3-5; foreign 3-10.

More recently the boating industry went through the same things. Buyers left the market in droves. There aren't many foreign boats but Doral from Canada became very popular in the northern states at least. A few boat manufacturers saw the light and improved and garnered a huge market share. Now there is a manfacturers trade association and if you don't perform they will intervene. The Coast Guard also improved standardized testing and there were some big name boats that failed. A few lawsuits helped as well.

Now there are some RV manufacturers that are stressing quality and when the majority see they are losing market share things will begin to change. Hopefully I'll live that long.

Happy Thanksgiving

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-24-2005, 11:34 AM

Yes and now GM is laying off 30,000 and closing plants and Ford is close behind. While Toyota is building more US plants. With the US auto industry it has to do with greater operating expenses than quality control.

As far as boating industry, The Japanese were smart enough to jump on the 4 cycle outboards while the US mfgs tried to upgrade an out dated oil burning 2 cycle smog machine. The likes of Tahutsu/Nissan, Suzuki, Yamaha etc were taking over the outboard market. Only when Mercury and Johnson/Evinrude wised up and teamed up with these same Japanese manufacturers and started building 4 cycles did we see any changes. Not a quality control issue there either.
There are very few Japanese manufactured boats. The likes of Bay Liner, Maxum and a couple others gave the US boating industry a bad name. I'll let the boating forums discuss that issue.

RV manufacturers may claim they are stressing quality but there stats don't prove that out and in fact show otherwise. Some of the very top of the line RV's are no better than the entry level when it comes to quality control. Most all RV manufacturers are sacrificing quality for quantity. The more they shove out the door the more money they shove into their pockets. When you reverse that, than and only than, will you get better quality control.

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quote:Hopefully I'll live that long.

We can hope but I doubt our grandchildren will live that long.

richfaa · 11-24-2005, 12:50 PM

You both make excellent points..IMHO the auto US auto industry is paying the price for not keeping up with the foreign makers.Our steel industry has already paid the price.In the long run quality does make a difference.It takes the consumers a while but they catch on.I can remember the day when made in Japan was a dirty word..what happened...Glenn you are right..It ain't gonna happen primarily because the consumer just doesn't care enough...yet. One day one RV manufacture will have a BJO (blazing glimpse of the obvious) go all out on quality control and bury all those who do not follow. Yes I will buy my 3670Rl and no doubt fix a lot of things myself because "That's the way it is" but this consumer will not roll over.After working for the Government for 37 years I do know how to use the system to beat the System. One of my hero's Dwight D. Eisenhower once said "One day the people will want something so bad that we will have to give it to them" The RV industry needs to listen up... I am off my soap box..

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-24-2005, 01:25 PM

Yes I guess I'll get off my soap box as well.

I'll close with just one comment. I only hope that none of the RVs I sell come off the assembly line on a Monday or a Friday.

Good luck with that new Monty.

dsprik · 11-24-2005, 02:07 PM

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quote:Originally posted by richfaa

One day one RV manufacture will have a BJO (blazing glimpse of the obvious) go all out on quality control and bury all those who do not follow.

Hope it's Keystone... I'd miss you guys!

richfaa · 11-24-2005, 11:22 PM

yea nuff said..Glenn. You may not think this yet but selling RV's is going to be a eye opening experience for you in terms of quality...Oh well..Hi of 80 today in Ft Lauderdale, Fla..love it...

lightningjack11 · 11-25-2005, 02:47 AM

If I do upgrade to another Montana I think I will write up a typed addendum to my contract that specifies all problems reported in this forum will will be inspected for by the Mfgr prior to shipment. I would list the problems in the addendem. Inspectors signed name required with direct phone number for resolution. Failure to provide an adequate inspection will endanger contract completion and will require all monies returned if buyer is not 100% satisfied with resolution.

Any way I have been thinking about this. The idea is to prevent a large personnal loss if a defective unit is received. This would have the advantage of correcting/inspecting all known problems either at Mfgr. Dealer would provide resolutions. Warranty would start after all identified items are inspected and certified and contract is completed. Unforseen problems would then come under warranty.

I know I am rambling but there has got to be a better way of closing a deal only to find out your unit will have to stay in the shop so much after you buy it. I would never give up my Monty unless there was something to take its place.

In other words recurring problems shall be specifically addressed and certified fixed.

aljolleyjr · 11-25-2005, 02:58 AM

What the RV industry needs is for the Japenese to build an RV plant somewhere between Goshen and Elkart Indiana.

dsprik · 11-25-2005, 05:13 AM

That would be a great idea, Al. Or Chinese? The Japanese are focused right now on catching GM. Last report has Toyota closing as leading auto mfr ~ 8 mill to 9 mill (per year) Toyota to GM.

Tom, it's too bad, but they probably wouldn't sign it. They know how much is coming back in now... doubt they're willing to increase their liability. I don't know, couldn't hurt to ask, though. Don't PDI's have any fine print that backs the buyer if something happens later? Might also be able to negotiate a longer warranty with an addendum? How about 3 years?

lightningjack11 · 11-25-2005, 05:33 AM

Dave,

Your right that the dealer would probably not let it through.

But remember the addendum would only have the most recurring problems that are discovered by MOC members. Known bad things. These items should be in their quality control checklist. Why ship without checking these item? It cost more to fix them by a dealer than on the assembly line.

dsprik · 11-25-2005, 07:00 AM

It might be possible to get some sort of non~threatening (that wouldn't trigger their defensive posture) agreement with these MOC problems to back you up. If someone genuinely approached a dealer with valid concerns, I can't believe they would not consider it. Or else it might be time to change dealers?

If they they think they just have whiner and complainer standing in front of them, someone probably won't get too far. I believe they've seen that one or two times before. Someone would have to somehow portray themselves as being in a different class.

Mac · 11-25-2005, 01:10 PM

Glenn,

I agree, no matter what you buy there is a potential for problems. I will never own another Dodge because I had a terrible experience. I've had five RV's from campers, to motor homes to fifth wheels but I've not yet found anything that compares to the quality of my Monty. I might have gotten lucky, but I doubt it, they put out far more good units than bad.

mac

FredG · 11-25-2005, 04:48 PM

I like this idea, but I don't think any manufacturer or dealer would respond to this in a positive manner. It's too adversarial. My opinion is that anybody buying a new unit should schedule a solid day to perform a complete top-to-bottom PDI, before signing the final papers. Test everything. Make sure the dealer knows that you are an experienced RVer and will perform a thorough inspection before signing on the dotted line and that you will not sign until everything is working to your satisfaction. Be prepared to walk out of the dealer without signing the final contract, but giving them a set date to have everything to your satisfaction. Make sure they know you will be just as thorough on the second PDI. That will be a very strong comment on the dealer's prep services, as well as the manufacturer.

This would also put pressure on the dealers to make sure the unit is solid and, if enough RV buyers do this, those dealers will put pressure on the manufacturers because it is now costing them time and money. Remember, while doing the inspection, your unit will probably be in one of the dealer's maintenance bays and they can't move it while you're in it.

One other thing that I would like to see is every owner posting reviews of their units (good or bad). If the manufacturers start to get heat from competing units getting better reviews...well that may also help improve the industries QA programs.

Well, that's my .02 cents, so I'll get off my soapbox now.

Fred

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by lightningjack11

If I do upgrade to another Montana I think I will write up a typed addendum to my contract that specifies all problems reported in this forum will will be inspected for by the Mfgr prior to shipment. I would list the problems in the addendem. Inspectors signed name required with direct phone number for resolution. Failure to provide an adequate inspection will endanger contract completion and will require all monies returned if buyer is not 100% satisfied with resolution.

Any way I have been thinking about this. The idea is to prevent a large personnal loss if a defective unit is received. This would have the advantage of correcting/inspecting all known problems either at Mfgr. Dealer would provide resolutions. Warranty would start after all identified items are inspected and certified and contract is completed. Unforseen problems would then come under warranty.

PartyCrashers · 11-25-2005, 07:21 PM

I don't know.....we own a brand XXXX at the time. I have learned one thing.....to make sure you use everything and really test things out before the warranty is up. Granted we have not had major problems...only little ones that we can take care of, but it all takes time. We are lucky that our problems have only resulted in Leaky toilets, leaky tub/shower lines. Cable T.V. connectors squashed, bed platform too thin( caused bowing in middle of bed)Again all our problems have been small and we have been able to fix them ourselves. We have only owned the (new) trailer for a year and a half.But from what we are learning from being on this web site and one other one...yes quality control is not that great for any manufactor, but what do you do!? We also realize that owning an RV is not like owing a home....you need to expect to make more and more often repairs...after all you are hauling how many 1000'slbs down a road, not to mention the motions are not smooth. For our future, the next RV, we might just use it more and run everything before warranty is up. But for us this is also a hobby.....We love RVing!

tollmann · 11-26-2005, 09:32 AM

I made a trip back to the factory Monday to get my frame flex fixed. What Keystone might miss while they are building the units is made up for by their FANTASTIC service. They even noticed a few things that I hadn't complained about and fixed them too. As long as nobody builds the perfect RV it is sure nice to have great customer service. All this and I am out of warranty and there has never been a charge to repair my unit. They have even fixed a few things that were my fault. WELL DONE Keystone.

dsprik · 11-26-2005, 02:39 PM

Tom, maybe it was that MOC sticker on the back of your Montana???

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-27-2005, 12:49 AM

OK, back on the

What started this thread was based on information that I garnered while browsing thru other manufacturers forums. A post such as toolmann's is what I rarely found.

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quote:Originally posted by tollmann

I made a trip back to the factory Monday to get my frame flex fixed. What Keystone might miss while they are building the units is made up for by their FANTASTIC service. They even noticed a few things that I hadn't complained about and fixed them too. As long as nobody builds the perfect RV it is sure nice to have great customer service. All this and I am out of warranty and there has never been a charge to repair my unit. They have even fixed a few things that were my fault. WELL DONE Keystone.

With the many threads complaining about the poor craftsmanship and quality control at the plant what I DIDN'T often see were the posts where that particular manufacturer stood behind their product. I'm not saying they don't, I'm just pointing out that there's not much mention of it.
On the other hand, for every Montana/Mountaineer post complaining about craftsmanship and quality control there have been just as many posts of how Montana/Mountaineer has stood behind their buyers when there were problems and in many cases the rigs were out of warranty.

In my own case I have had darn few problems with my rig and none of them major. A dragging shower door, a cabinet door that wasn't hung square and a couple of other really minor things all of which I ended up fixing myself. Personally I have no real complaints and this along with what I read here on the MOC are reasons enough for me to be sold on the Montana line and why I'll buy a new Monty when I am ready to upgrade. It is also a very good reason why I would want to sell the Montys. It is oh so easy to sell a product you believe in.

BTW-dsprik, All of us in the MOC family would love to think the MOC sticker had something to do with it but I'm sure that Montana stands behind none stickered rigs as well. But than again, just owning a Montana or Mountaineer automatically makes us all members of the Montana "Owners" Club.

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