Auto former

[OntMont]

quote:
At its heart the autoformer is a transformer with one primary winding and two secondary windings. The secondary windings provide a 1:1 or a 1:1.1 ratio. The windings are engaged depending on the voltage detected. With appropriate voltage the 1:1 windings are used. In a low voltage condition the 1:1.1 windings are energized which steps up the voltage by 10%. There are no moving parts so there is nothing to wear out on the autoformer.

O.K. I fully subscribe the Law of Conservation of Energy, and Ohm's laws. That said, can we get back to the what an Autoformer actually does? Is the above description correct? I had imagined that they would be somewhat more sophisticated than just a simple 10% boost when the input voltage dropped.

On further consideration, perhaps that is all that is necessary.

While voltage control is their primary function, I would think that they are also pretty good surge protectors as well.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

First of all, to answer dsprik...

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Well, looks like the experts disagree. Let's try this... any non-technical MOC members out there EVER have a problem with their autoformer - with tripping breakers, other campers yelling at you, or CG managers telling you, "NO!" (or any CG offices blowing up)?

NO to all of the above AND I have not burned out my A/C either.

This is possibly one of the most interesting posts I have seen in quite awhile. All kinds of hi tech discussion that boggles the mind of this layman. Way too much technical stuff for me. Now after all the "experts' of made their cases and when it is all said and done I have decided to go with the Hughes explanation of.......

quote:Originally posted by fulltimedreamer
How Does It Work
Don't get caught with your voltage down!

At first we are tempted to say very 'well'. But this may not be the answer you are looking for!
Autoformers are used in industries to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of equipment. The Autoformer has 5 windings: 2 primary and 3 secondary. All models have surge and spike protection. When the unit is in Automatic and the park or input voltage is 116 volts or below, the output is 10% over the input. When the input is over 118 volts, the output is 2% over the input.

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.

What it is doing is changing the voltage - amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV

An Autoformer running at full output (50amps) will use 1 amp, but will cause appliances to cycle more often and run cooler. This will use less total power from the park.

Thank you Lamar for posting that.

Now after all that techy stuff this is my stance on the Autoformer and any parks I stay in with low voltage.

I will continue to protect my investment. If this means plugging in my Autoformer to boost the voltage in order that my A/C can run without overheating and possibly burning out than plugging it in I will. No Ifs Ands or Buts About It.

quote:Originally posted by OntMont
While voltage control is their primary function, I would think that they are also pretty good surge protectors as well.

Yes John they are pretty good surge protectors BUT at 400 bucks a pop they are also very expensive surge protectors.

BTW-I have a 30AMP Autoformer for my 30AMP Montana. One of the last 30AMP rigs Montana built.

[315RLS]

quote:Originally posted by mobilrun

Guess we're in the anti-autoformer camp. Obviously from the responses, some think that there is a "free lunch" out there. The voltage increase comes from someplace, not thin air. That increase is at the expense of fellow campers for the most part. Guess that I might be very unhappy with owner of an autoformer which damaged my equipment. This is why they are banned in many campgrounds. This is a problem for the campgrounds to resolve, not the campers. Complain about the power and leave, if necessary (after a refund, of course). Make sure when you sign in that the power is sufficient for your needs. A voltage meter is a must. I check the power at the site before unhitching.

Thank you. These sound like something to stay away from for the consideration of other campers as well.

(Dave thanks for pointing out I had responded to the wrong note (fulltimedreamer's) when I had meant to respond to Mobilrun's.)

[dsprik]

Sorry, 315RLS, I not getting what was in that post that brought you to that conclusion (unless I'm misunderstanding your post)? I guess, with a Montana/Mountaineer, I would do what I had to to protect my investment against a known unexpected occurance. I'm not going into any CG, knowing they have low voltage, with the malicious attitude that I am going to wreck havoc on every camper I can destroy. If there was a persistent problem with a CG's voltage, I just wouldn't return. But if I get caught at an unfamiliar CG and the voltage drops, I guess my philosophy would be: at least I don't fry my electronics and test my extended warranty (minus deductibles) before I can get out of there.

I get the feeling that some think that if someone goes out and buys an autoformer (I'm not referring to you, 315RLS), that they are mean, vindictive people who are looking to intentionally inflict damage on other camper's equipment.

I don't believe that is the thinking of most who go to CW to get one of these. I know I'm not mean... my personality is such that I want everyone to like me... but I'm still getting an autoformer.

[azstar]

Wow,
Great stuff.
I too have bought an Autoformer. I have used a Surgeguard for a few years now, and was quite happy with that. However, we did have the Surgeguard shut down a few times due to low voltage. If we didn't have the S/G we would not have known we were operating everything with low voltage, possibly damaging our Rig, because the parks power would only drop to low levels during the peak heat and dinner time. The voltage looked fine when we pulled in, but as the Parks fill up towards the end of the day and everyone is trying to get their rigs cooled down, there goes the voltage.

I was almost anti-Autoformer because, of the thought of, if too many folks bought thease devices it would worsen the problem. I now believe the Park power has indeed worsened but not only due to A/F,s but to the big "Elect. power gusslers" we all have.

So all that being said, we have been using our built in A/F with our S/G for about a year now. I also have the pig tails to make for easy bypass of the A/F. I look at the booster indicator light at peak consumption times and is seems to be on at about 1 in 10 parks. Usually the cheap ones where we're stoping for one night.

I have seen at least one Parks notes that said, "NO POWER BOOSTERS" it was either in our Passport Am. book or our Coast to Coast book.

I also have met, two 5er owners (one Monty) in the last year who had major destruction due to miswired park pedestals. Something the S/G protects for. The one couple sued the Park and were able to recoupe the cost for their Frige, TV and other stuff, but they didn't recoup the cost for the Lawyer, or anything that may fail in the future due to the problem.

I wish it wasn't necessary but I think thease days if we want to protect ourselves we need both the S/G and the A/F.

I'm afraid those Folks out there without access to this knowledge will suffer.

[mobilrvn]

Another bit of info regarding our attitude on autoformers. We spend at least a third of our time in CGs with marginal power (usually too low, but sometimes too high or places where it goes from one extreme to the other), mostly in Mexico, but also in other locales--generally seasonal CGs. There a neighbor can basically knock you off the CG grid if they are using an autoformer--especially annoying when they are gone all day and you can't even watch the news on TV. You need to keep an eye on the meter quite often. Usually complaining in Mexico doesn't get you anywhere since they are the only game in town. But complaining does work where there is competition. If we, as campers, are paying for full hookups, then we should have useful power and safe water at a minimum. Guess we feel that everyone should share the good and bad and do what we can to make the bad better without hurting our neighbors. Do sort of wonder what would happen in a CG with say a 15% low voltage situation where 50 campers all had autoformers plugged in as to what could happen--not just speculation.

[dsprik]

quote:Originally posted by mobilrvn

There a neighbor can basically knock you off the CG grid if they are using an autoformer--especially annoying when they are gone all day and you can't even watch the news on TV.

I'd probably go out and get one myself, Bill. I know they're expensive... was that the holdup?

quote:Guess we feel that everyone should share the good and bad and do what we can to make the bad better without hurting our neighbors.

Isn't one of the Commandments, "Love thy neighbor... but protect yourself"? Something like that... I'll run that by my pastor this weekend...

quoteo sort of wonder what would happen in a CG with say a 15% low voltage situation where 50 campers all had autoformers plugged in as to what could happen--not just speculation.

Bill, I think that it would indeed be an interesting experiment. Did you read about my home electromagnet experiment when I was in the seventh grade? I'm good at setting these things up... just don't get a campsite too close to the camp store or the office... (And you might want to get yourself a pair of DARK sunglasses)

I agree with you, Bill, that we absolutely need to be considerate of other campers. If there is a problem, we should work together, if at all possible. That's what the MOC is all about, I believe. However, You can't go down with the ship.

It reminds me of a true story about a famous pastor. While out sailing one day with friends, they sprung a bad leak in bottom of their sailboat. They were quite a ways out from shore and it didn't look good. One of the frantic people in the boat turned to the pastor and said, "Pastor, we are all going have to pray!" The pastor's response was, "You pray, I''ll bail." True story.

Prayer is good, but "Faith without action is dead." Can't remember what book that was out of...

Oh, and while I'm on a roll, here... I also have heard this quoted: "You don't drown by falling in water... You drown by not getting out!"

Someone is going to have to remind me of why I was quoting all this???

[Sweetfire]

66 comment, 1,644 readers of this thread, I find that impressive. Shows to go ya that alot of people are thinking of this subject one way or the other. I think that's great.

[dsprik]

I may have been unclear on my last post, Bill. I surely do not mean any disrespect, so don't hate me (remember my personaity?) for this next set of comments:

What I was trying to say is:

1. I would NEVER go fishing on Alaska in the middle of a Brown Bear salmon feeding area without a 30-06 or bigger.

2. I would NEVER go into the "Valley of Death" without my Bible, and

3. I would NEVER offer my Montana as a living sacrifice by going into a known (or suspected) problem CG without being FULLY protected.

Those quotes were meant to say that I believe that if there is a problem, I need to take action to protect my property. I really don't want to intentionally share bad experiences with other people, either. I've done enough of this unintentionally in my life... I'll help if I can, but I won't get down in the mud and wallow with them.

[Sweetfire]

In other words; Help your neighbor, but protect yourself. I can live with that.

[RADHAZJOE]

Well, guys, I have been converted. I am going to get an autoformer. My technical thinking was correct but my need to protect my investment is more important. I don't really care what happens to CG's that don not supply sufficient power for their clients. They are in fact cheating me and risking my rig for their small profit.

Thanks all. I will, however, come up with a wiring scheme for 3400RL and forward it to Keystone. I cannot understand whythey don"t do a better job of load balabcing but that is another story.

[ols1932]

I think we've beaten this dead horse long enough. We're always going to have "expert" opinions and "practical experience" opinions. There are always going to be those who swear by the autoformer and those who don't.

[harleyrider]

All this talk about the "autoformer"i`am just about ready to bite the bullet and get myself one.

So the procedure goes-plug autoformer into camp ground post-then surge guard into autoformer-then Montana plug into surge guard RIGHT??

I just might ask Santa Claus for this[img]

[Sweetfire]

I think it should be CG-surge protector-autoformer-RV. This way your protecting a $475.oo plus autoformer and the RV. On some surge protectors there is a low voltage guard and a by-pass. If you were to get a really, really low voltage, one the autoformer could not boost you would know to disconnect the auto former, by-pass the surge protector's low voltage guard, switch the fridg to propane and not run the AC, microwave, or anything else with an electric motor.

[dsprik]

Orv, don't leave yet... Could you please restate your order from electric post to Montana for the surge protector and autoformer for both harleyrider and me? And you reasoning?

[azstar]

Hi Folks,

If you have the S/G with high/low cut off, you would come from the Park post to the A/F then to the S/G, then to the rig. If you didn't do it this way the S/G would see low Volts and shut down all power to your Rig. This way the A/F will boost voltage and the S/G will do it's job of protecting for Surge/Spike/Reverse Polarity and Hi/Low power.

But what's protecting the A/F? Nothing execept it's own built in surge protection. Which is minimal. It seems as if it has enough protection to protect itself as we haven't heard of anyone loosing one due to Surge/Spike.

Now, if you have a Surge/Spike protector with out the Hi/Low cut off you would come from the Park Post with the Surge Protection first and then the A/F and then the Rig.

I highly recomend we always use a little handy plug in Elect. tester available at HD, Lowes, Wallys and other. They cost under $10. They check for correct wiring. For those out there that don't know about them, their a must have for RV'ers. Always check before pluging in anything.

Hope this helps,
Happy Camping

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Orv, don't leave yet... Could you please restate your order from electric post to Montana for the surge protector and autoformer for both harleyrider and me? And you reasoning?

We all have a lot of investment to protect and I sure want to protect mine. I always want to use a surge protector. In some campgrounds the voltage is less than 102 volts which is the low voltage cutoff built into the surge protector. So, it stands to reason that I can't protect my rig with that low voltage. I then connect my autoformer to the campground pedestal, using a cable long enough to reach under my rig so I can protect the autoformer from the elements. I then connect my surge protector on the output of the autoformer which is now putting out 110 to 112 volts. I connect the output of the surge protector to the input of the rig. This gives me the protection for my investment.

I wouldn't be so particular if it hadn't been that a friend of mine had his electrical circuits burn up along with his microwave and reefer caused by low voltage input.

I can't afford the expense of replacing major parts of my rig, especially when I live in it full time.

Everyone is going to have their opinions on these kinds of subjects but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I believe that it would be a sorry campground that had low power and yet had the gall to tell me that I couldn't protect my unit. I don't think they would stay in business too long.

Hope this helps.

[dsprik]

Thanks, guys!

OK, I have a question... what exactly causes low voltage in a CG? Is it because everyone on a hot afternoon all turn on their A/C? Or is this a non-fluctuating situation due to poor, old wiring, CG or power co.?

It seems to me that if this is a fluctuating situation that changes due to demand, pulling into a CG at night and checking the voltage with your meter to determine the safe way to rig up your S/G and A/F, and then expecting the voltage to remain static, would be dangerous. Especially the next afternoon when the high load hits. This means that the meter is not going to be a functional tool unless one plans on running out to the post every hour or so to check to see if they need to change things, or not.

If a low voltage CG is a non-fluctuating situation, then this would make a one time meter reading, when you rig up, a good thing, as you could then determine that if the voltage is adequate when you pull in to your site, you can rest easy knowing you will not need your A/F. Or if it is low, hook up your S/G & A/F, or vice versa, knowing you are going to need it the entire time you are at this CG.

So which is it?

[Glenn and Lorraine]

In the case of the CG we were in near Allentown Penna it was the power company supplying the CG. At first we thought it was the CG until we checked with a grocery store and a nearby restaurant. We were told that every summer when the big companies in the neighborhood fired up their huge A/C systems along with all their other electrical equipment the voltage plummeted. After the offices closed down for the day and weekends the voltage returned to a more tolerable level. The restaurant switched all their cooking equipment to propane. And it was the same low voltage situation at a CG in the neighboring township. They also had the same power company but a different station. The area has seen a buildup of buildings and homes but the power company has done nothing to keep up. It was this voltage situation and at the suggestion of the first CG that convinced me to buy my Autoformer.

BTW-For future information sake these CGs were...
Pine Hill RV Park
Robin Hill Camping Resort

[CountryGuy]

Dave,

We experience same problems, power dropping off in summer, hot, everyone wants to run the ole A/C. Part of the problem can be the power company,sometimes it is the campground equipment. At a state park we go to, there is a channel, 10 to 15 lots on the channel, during hot weather, part of the channel lots will blow the campground service, another section of the channel lots will stay on. (They are on different breakers in the equipment room) We have been told it is the equipment at the campground, and even tho they are fully aware of the problem, they have not fixed due to the financial situation of the State of Michigan and the Michigan State Parks operating where they have to support themselves. The employees will come around and ask you to turn off the second refer many units have sitting outside in the hot sun loaded with drinks, and your A/C units. Happens every time it gets hot in the middle of the afternoon. The yorks get to go on a lot of boat rides while we are here, cause we did come back one hot afternoon and found the power off, with them inside. Lucky power had not been off long. In this case it does not matter much what your power readings are at the pole, cause large sections of the campground go down at one time. We have one of those digital monitors for power levels, keep it plugged into a inside plug so we can constantly monitor in bad power situations. Also bad time of the day, breakfast time, must be all those toasters and coffee pots perking away!