12 Volt Problem???

[jackel1959]

I am having a problem with the 12V lighting and 12V systems. When the rig is plugged into shore power the 12V lights seem dim (not terribly, but noticeable) and when I check the monitor panel the battery level will be down one dot from fully charged indicating 3/4 charge. If I run the slide rooms in and out, they extend and retract slower than what they should. If I load the 110V system by turning on the TV, water heater or something else that puts a load on the converter, the 12V lights brighten up, the slide rooms move in and out as they should and the battery level indicator will show fully charged. I have replaced both 50AMP AUTO RESET Circuit Breakers from the battery to the Auxiliaries, checked the fuses on the 12V side of the converter with an OHM Meter and they are good (I replaced them anyway). I have read the voltage being supplied from the 12V side to the batteries and when the lights are dim it reads 12.1 -12.9V after I load the 110 system and things brighten up I read anywhere from 13.6 to about 14.2V. The batteries are new and I have checked the grounds. All seems good. I am at a loss as to what I should do next. We are trying to sell the rig and I certainly don't want to sell someone my problems. I can only conclude that I may have to replace the converter. Any other thoughts from the forum? Thanks.
Jack

[Crossthread]

Jack, Have you checked the 110v circuit breaker that supplies power to the converter? Bill

[SlickWillie]

Just from the output voltage on the converter, it sounds like it might be OK. I would check all the AC wiring in the distribution panel. Just curious, is that a WFCO panel and converter? 30 amp panel? Just my thoughts, but if I were checking it out, I would look for a bad neutral connection on the AC side of the converter. Sounds to me as if it might be backfeeding somehow when you use the AC system. JMHO

[H. John Kohl]

quote:Originally posted by jackel1959

-snip - If I load the 110V system by turning on the TV, water heater or something else that puts a load on the converter, the 12V lights brighten up, the slide rooms move in and out as they should and the battery level indicator will show fully charged. - snip -

How do you turn on the Hot water heater?
Based on your description I think the converter is being turned on during the process of "loading" the 110 AC system.
Have you have found the 110AC outlet that powers your converter. Check it with a VOM for power before you start loading the 110AC and then after you turn on each AC breaker or device, if that is your process.
Good luck and let us know what you find.

[bw2]

On my 3400, the 12 v fuse panel has two 30 amp blade fuses on the left side of the panel. I had one of the fuses blown. Measure the fuses to see if one of them has blown. I failed to measure and only held it up to the light the first time. After 3 hours of chasing other options, wentr back and replaced the fuse and all was well.

[noneck]

As others have said;
> Converter is working (your notation about reading 14v as battery alone can not get to this voltage)
> You need to discover what is triggering it to turn on, I know of no switching for this so....
- Using your meter and no other 110vac devices running check the power feed to the converter
- Pay special attention to the neutral as noted by others...
Keep us posted as you work through the diagnostic process we can adjust what to check next.

[hazmic]

Was this happening before you replaced the battery's or after? Also are they 2 six volts in series or 2 twelve volts hooked in parallel. If hooked parallel there could be one that is bad. Just because they are new dose do mean they are good. If hooked parallel disconnect one and then do the checking and see what happens. This is very unusual.

[jackel1959]

Thanks for all of your inputs. I will start troubleshooting from where I plug into shore power back to the converter today paying special attention to the neutral connections. I will try to answer all of the questions you have asked:
1. This is a 30AMP Panel. I will have to look to see who it is manufactured by.
2. I have a switch inside the rig to turn on the water heater and that is how I am turning it on and off. But if I turn on the TV or plug in a vacuum cleaner I get the same "loading" affect.
3. I don't think the converter is plugged into an outlet but wired directly from where the power cord connects to the rigs wiring. At least that's the way it looked to me when I had the converter out before.
4. I do have two 40A blade fuses on the right side of the panel along with a host of 15A and have replaced both of them and checked the 15A. I will look for any other fuses.
5. This was happening before I replaced the batteries. They were four years old and each had a dead cell. They are two 12V wired in parallel.
I will keep you posted on what I find today.
Jack

[SlickWillie]

Jack, if you have the WFCO (World Friendship) panel and converter, the converter may have fuses on the front of the converter itself. This is the converter and panel we have, just ours is a 50amp distribution panel and 45 amp converter. Not sure what Keystone used in your model year. IIRC, those fuses are two parallel 12v circuits. One blown fuse would cut the converter amps by 50%. I still don't think that would explain why the converter output jumps when the other 110v items are turned on though.

[H. John Kohl]

quote:Originally posted by jackel1959

Thanks for all of your inputs. I will start troubleshooting from where I plug into shore power back to the converter today paying special attention to the neutral connections. I will try to answer all of the questions you have asked: I would start at the converter.
1. This is a 30AMP Panel. I will have to look to see who it is manufactured by.
2. I have a switch inside the rig to turn on the water heater and that is how I am turning it on and off. But if I turn on the TV or plug in a vacuum cleaner I get the same "loading" affect.This comment leads me to believe there is a loose wire on the 110 AC Feed to the converter. As stated before I would look at the "return/Black wire and then the ground/Green and source/White" for loose connections.
3. I don't think the converter is plugged into an outlet but wired directly from where the power cord connects to the rigs wiring. At least that's the way it looked to me when I had the converter out before. My convert is plugged into a 110AC receptacle . The wires from the circuit breaker to that receptacle if there is where I would look.
4. I do have two 40A blade fuses on the right side of the panel along with a host of 15A and have replaced both of them and checked the 15A. I will look for any other fuses.
5. This was happening before I replaced the batteries. They were four years old and each had a dead cell. They are two 12V wired in parallel.
I will keep you posted on what I find today.
Jack

Since you get brighter lights when you "load" the AC side I do not think your problem is on the 12DC side but anything is possible.
Please keep us informed.

[jackel1959]

Well I spent a good deal of time both yesterday and today troubleshooting this problem. All connections, grounds, positive and neutrals are tight. I checked the connection of the shore power cord to the trailer's wiring and they are good. I read the AC circuit breakers and they are all good. All DC fuses were re-checked and they are good. I have 122.6 VAC coming into the rig and out of the outlets in the rig. I checked and cleaned the grounds going to the frame. The only things I haven't done is replace the ground wire from the batteries to the frame and I have not physically checked the connections of the wiring to the outlets and switches. Maybe I'm chasing my tail Before the converter kicks in I still read anywhere from 12.2-12.9 VDC, depending on how many 12V accessories and lights I have on (which I think is just the battery voltage) and when the converter kicks on I get about 14.2 VDC. Is this normal operation or do I really have a problem? I'm frustrated and short of taking it to shop I'm not sure what to do next.

Jack

[H. John Kohl]

I still feel you need to find what causes the convert to kick in which means you have to find what 120VAC line and circuit breaker provides the voltage to the converter.
And as you said taking it to a shop is an option.
Good luck and please keep us informed.

[jackel1959]

Thanks John. I now understand what you are saying. I will track down the breaker that provides the power to the converter tomorrow and let you know what I come up with.

Jack

[jackel1959]

Okay, I have determined which AC Breaker is providing power to the Converter. It is labeled "RECEPT" which is for all the outlets except the GFCI's and Micro. The Water Heater, GFCI Outlets, Micro, and A/C have their own dedicated breakers. There is a pigtail off the breaker that supplies power to the converter and that connection is good. I have swapped out the circuit breaker and no joy. I have unplugged everything from all of the outlets so there should be no load at all on the system and the converter still won't kick in. The batteries dropped to 11.3 VDC before I could make the converter kick on this last time. I have checked the solder and blade connections on the converter and the connections on the 12V fuse panel and they all check good. I am beginning to think it is the converter. Other thoughts??? What should be making the converter kick on? I would think it is a certain voltage reading from the batteries or a certain load placed on the 12V system. The only other thing I just thought of, is to disconnect the outlets from the breaker and just connect the converter by itself which should completely remove the outlets from the equation.
r,
Jack

[H. John Kohl]

I would plug the converter into an extension cord which would be plugged into the outside pedestal, this isolates all the trailer 110AC and see if it works. If still the same problem then you are right it is the converter. If you replace it make sure the replacement has a remote monitoring unit and that should also have a three stage charging set up.
Good luck and let us know what you find.

[jackel1959]

quote:Originally posted by H. John Kohl

I would plug the converter into an extension cord which would be plugged into the outside pedestal, this isolates all the trailer 110AC and see if it works. If still the same problem then you are right it is the converter. If you replace it make sure the replacement has a remote monitoring unit and that should also have a three stage charging set up.
Good luck and let us know what you find.

I'll have to wire up a plug for it but that shouldn't be a problem. This is what the converter looks like. WFCO 8955 MBA I will let you know how it all works out.

[SlickWillie]

C&P from the converter manual:

[Before checking the converter output voltage, it is necessary to disconnect the battery terminal wires (as shown below). Cap each wire or wrap with electrical tape. Make sure the converter is plugged into 120 Vac source. Check the converter output voltage with a voltmeter. On the Fuse Panel, place the Positive (red) probe on the +VCC output terminal lug and place the Negative (black) test probe on the NEG- output terminal lug. Be sure you have good connections at the terminals. If the voltage reads 13.6 Vdc (+/-.2), the converter is functioning properly.]

I keep going back to turning on the hot water heater and TV making the converter boost DC voltage. That just does not make sense to me, unless somehow, turning those on throws a load on the DC circuitry in the RV.

[jackel1959]

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

C&P from the converter manual:

[Before checking the converter output voltage, it is necessary to disconnect the battery terminal wires (as shown below). Cap each wire or wrap with electrical tape. Make sure the converter is plugged into 120 VAC source. Check the converter output voltage with a voltmeter. On the Fuse Panel, place the Positive (red) probe on the +VCC output terminal lug and place the Negative (black) test probe on the NEG- output terminal lug. Be sure you have good connections at the terminals. If the voltage reads 13.6 Vdc (+/-.2), the converter is functioning properly.]

I keep going back to turning on the hot water heater and TV making the converter boost DC voltage. That just does not make sense to me, unless somehow, turning those on throws a load on the DC circuitry in the RV.

I want to first start off by thanking all of you for helping we work through this problem, especially John K. It has been a slow process but I think I may see a light at the end of the tunnel. Will, thanks for the link to the manual. I never had one as one didn’t come with the rig when it was new. I too found it on the web and read the part about testing the converter. I had not been doing this so I went out this morning and checked it the proper way by disconnecting the battery leads and the converter is putting out the proper voltages. If I leave the NEG side for the battery disconnected and just have the POS side connected, the output voltages are good but when I reconnect the NEG side the voltages drop. The NEG side doesn’t run directly to the battery it runs down through the floor to a grounding point on the frame. At the front of the trailer there is a separate ground from the batteries to the frame. I traced the NEG side from the converter Sunday and it shares a common grounding point with the 120VAC system on the frame below the converter. I removed and cleaned both of them. Given this mornings test results, I believe there is a grounding problem so later today I am going to replace the ground between batteries, replace the one from the batteries to the frame and if that doesn’t do it I will replace the one from the converter to the frame. The only reason I can think of now that turning on an AC appliance I.E. water heater, vacuum. TV, etc. is causing the converter to kick in is that the AC and DC supplies share a common grounding point. If there is a bad or weak ground on the DC side does that make sense????

[SlickWillie]

I would expect a slight drop in voltage when you complete the circuit through the battery. In my opinion, that is the reason for testing the converter with no load. However, I am still at a loss why the voltage comes up with the use of the AC circuits. Perhaps the ground issue will correct that, I just don't know.

[H. John Kohl]

Senior Chief,
I think you are on the right track with the ground also. I would run a number six wire from the negative terminal of the battery to the ground strip at the fuse panel for the 12VDC system if possible. I still think turning on one of those AC items did complete the ground for you.
Good luck and let us know the final results.

I am wondering if the Hot Water switch actually switches both (double pole switch) source (hot) and return (common) and that is what completed the ground.