Warranty Reporting - Montana Owners Club

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 01:10 AM

We had a list of 27 items that we picked up off this forum, all problems , some small some large, but problems just the same.We went over them issue by issue with Mark Krol( (he took the list with him)district sales rep Montana/mountaineer) when we purchased our 3400 yesterday.. Issues like, loose connections in the electrical panel,plumbing leaks, etc. These were all things that we FIX OURSELVES,you know,they are just little things, they are to be expected, to much trouble to go back to the dealer. In just about EVERY case Mark said " we never heard of this, or this rarely ever happens, or we have no record of this.Keystone /Montana has a VERY GOOD recording system EVERY issue that is addressed through WARRANTY is entered in the database and from this data base they draw the "hot issues" or reoccurring problems. IF WE DO NOT REPORT THEM THROUGH WARRANTY KEYSTONE WILL NEVER KNOW ABOUT THEM. IF THEY DO NOT KNOW OF THEM OR THE FREQUENCY THAT THEY OCCUR..THEY NEVER BECOME A ISSUE.
Yes they DO read this forum..but it is NOT the official source of problem reporting..issues posted on this forum ARE NOT entered into any Keystone Data Base.The problems MUST GO THROUGH WARRANTY. By fixing these IN WARRANTY problems ourselves we are contributing ZERO towards making the Montana a better product. Yes there are quality issue and workmanship isssues at Montana but PART of the fault that they CONTINUE to occur is OURS by NOT reporting the issue through Warranty. It is a hours drive to my dealer..I WILL take the time and effort to go to them for Warranty issues large and SMALL.I told the owner that once I pull that 3400 out of the lot we NEVER want to see him again execpt to buy another Montana..Both he and I know that that will probably not happen. . That's my soapbox for today...

CountryGuy · 02-27-2006, 01:35 AM

Fine, but when you are 2000 miles from home, and the dealers don't want to work on your unit, and your TV is hanging from the hole, well, ya sorta gotta fix it yourself. But, good information for the MOC to have.

Emmel · 02-27-2006, 01:44 AM

Rich, it kind of reminds me of werk, we took care of our discrepencies on the line so we had ZERO defects! Boy is it nice to say retired! But yes you are right, we do take a couple minutes and tighten this hose on screw, I guess I'm bullheaded in the fact I can do that. Not necessarily the best thing for the company though. They need to know that you as a customer is fixing the little things and that our beloved Montys are not really perfect! Please don't stone me or Rich, but the factory listens to what we say, but no warrenty issue, no record! By the way, we had a lot of fun with our fellow MOCers at the show this weekend, didn't know anyone before we got there, but are bestest friends since! It was a pleasure watching Rich and Helen plop down that check too!

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 01:48 AM

Any Montana dealer SHOULD work on Warranty Issues.If they refuse a call to Montana Warranty service will direct you to a Dealer that WILL or convince that dealer to cooperate. There is always the emergency repair that must be made. The point being made was that Keystones can not address issues they do not know about. The place to report issues is through the Warranty data base. Improving the product is a two way street.The Manufacturere must do their part and the user must do his part.

CountryGuy · 02-27-2006, 02:04 AM

Maybe Rich, this is the next area that you should address, why should I have to call Montana to get a Montana dealer to work on my rig when I am 2000 miles from home. This is like a thorn under a saddle as far as I am concerned. And, for the record, it is NOT just Montana dealers that do this, dealer here in the RGV, has sign posted, where ALL can read it, they will work on your unit IF you purchased from them, then MAYBE they will work on others.

There are arguments both sides of the coin, if you have purchased from Dealer X you expect to get the royal treatment, but if you are 2000 miles from home and you need Dealer Z to fix something now, not in 6 weeks, that is frustrating beyond belief. The reason a lot of us fix our little stuff without going back to Dealer X or trying Dealer Z, is cause we cannot wait, as we are living in the unit, OR because Dealer X will pull our unit in and not work on it for weeks on end!

Warranty work and who does it still needs a bit of tweaking. Makes my blood boil, if you cannot tell from my post. Another reason Al and I are not in the market for another unit anytime soon. Stress of dealing with dealers and warranties is not how Al and I want to spend our retirement time.

Maybe Keystone could make up a new data base, BOOBOOS reported by the MOC and not brought in for warranty repairs???

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 02:18 AM

Country Guy. We agree 100% with you.That gets me very red in the neck also and we have done some homework on that issue. the major problem is the Warranty relationship between the dealer and the Company. Some companies have NO relationship with the Dealer other than they sell their brand. Some companies will pay a flat rate for Warranty work that is LESS than the dealers hourly rate.Gives the dealer little incentive to do Warranty work.But again..enough complaints from the user to the company and the company MAY get on the dealers case.What dealer would want to lose the franchise on the best selling fifth wheel because they refuse Warranty work..Howver..if we do not TELL montana that is occuring..there is no problem..

CountryGuy · 02-27-2006, 02:40 AM

We are telling Montana, here at MOC!

And when we get to the service center, and RV shows and Rallys! I scream and yell as sweetly as I can about this every time I get a chance, and sometimes, not as sweetly!

That said, Al and I are not gonna pull Montana 25 to 100 miles to a dealer to tighten up a screw or leaky plumbing joint. WHY?? Cause we can do it and cause we don't want to spend the time and money (fuel and wear and tear on the truck) and the frustration of dealing with some nimcompoo/nitwit at the dealer.

We will be watching for your future reports on how your dealer treats you AFTER the sale, and we fully expect that you will give the bloody details, good or bad. If we ever buy again, he may get our business, depending on your reports. We won't purchase again from the dude that sold us our Montana. We actually hope that this ole 3295 will serve us well for MANY MANY years to come, and that we won't have to go through the trama of a future purchase.

Carol

Searchers · 02-27-2006, 02:48 AM

Rich, I'd like a copy of your 27 item list if possible.
Thanks,
Don

Illini Trekker · 02-27-2006, 03:08 AM

These items take us back to the QUALITY CONTROL PERSON at the Keystone plants. Is he doing his job or just sipping on his coffee? This all come down to COST, Keystone passes the trailer on to the dealer and the new owner to save cost!

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 03:50 AM

Oh yes..I will report on what we find on our Montana..both good and bad and of course what the individual does is always up to the individual.Thought it might be beneficial for the user to be aware of how the system works and what the effect of the individual using, or not using the system will have on the product and others and again this forum is not the official place to report Warranty or other issues. We mean no disrespect to any individual and do not mean to say that what any individual is doing is wrong.It is right for them. I do hold folks accountable for what they do(myself included) and I do have to do something about it.Yes I do complain and I complain to the responsible person and if it is a inconvenience to me..well it just goes with the territory.

Glenn and Lorraine · 02-27-2006, 04:18 AM

Quote:

quote:By fixing these IN WARRANTY problems ourselves we are contributing ZERO towards making the Montana a better product. Yes there are quality issue and workmanship isssues at Montana but PART of the fault that they CONTINUE to occur is OURS by NOT reporting the issue through Warranty. It is a hours drive to my dealer..I WILL take the time and effort to go to them for Warranty issues large and SMALL.I told the owner that once I pull that 3400 out of the lot we NEVER want to see him again execpt to buy another Montana..Both he and I know that that will probably not happen.

I would NEVER EVER take my Monty back to the New York dealer I bought it from. They are at the top of my SH&* list and Keystone will not discipline that dealer as they are one of Keystone's biggest northeast dealers.
And their big southeast Keystone dealer here in Florida is no better. This is the dealer I tried to work for. Their policy is.. if you bought from them you get the immediate service you'd expect but if you bought elsewhere they will "FIT" you in sometime in the next 2 months. Being that both of these dealers sell huge numbers of Keystone products, Keystone will allow these 2 dealers to do whatever they please.

Quote:

quote:Any Montana dealer SHOULD work on Warranty Issues.If they refuse a call to Montana Warranty service will direct you to a Dealer that WILL or convince that dealer to cooperate.

I believe any Montana dealer "WILL" work on your warranty issues. The problem is "WHEN". As a full timer I can't wait 8 to 10 weeks to get work done. Rich, If and when you do go full time you will realize what we are saying.

As far as Keystone/Montana hearing about these issues?? Believe me they do hear about them. Not just here on the MOC forum but at both rallies in Goshen and the Northeast rally in New York last June, the RV shows in both Harrisburg (now Hershey) and here in Tampa and anywhere else I may run across a Keystone rep.

Rich, I have been very lucky in having a rather trouble free Monty and I do hope that you have the same luck with your new rig.

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 04:44 AM

The point was REPORT the issue, Makes no difference to what dealer .Lets just forget the Warranty reporting issue.We can't seem to make the point that the data base for HOT issues comes from the Warranty database. That my rig will have or will not have problems is not the issue.The issue is reporting the problems to the proper place so they may not be issues in the future. Now Mark Krol is a good man. I know what he will do with the list we gave him, he has done it before, he will check the list against the Warranty database and I will get a E mail from him and he will say we have no little or no information on the following issues and he will be correct.The information I thougt MIGHT be of some value is apparenty meaningless.So I withdraw the post.

Glenn and Lorraine · 02-27-2006, 05:00 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

The point was REPORT the issue, Makes no difference to what dealer .Lets just forget the Warranty reporting issue.We can't seem to make the point that the data base for HOT issues comes from the Warranty database. That my rig will have or will not have problems is not the issue.The issue is reporting the problems to the proper place so they may not be issues in the future. Now Mark Krol is a good man. I know what he will do with the list we gave him, he has done it before, he will check the list against the Warranty database and I will get a E mail from him and he will say we have no little or no information on the following issues and he will be correct.The information I thougt MIGHT be of some value is apparenty meaningless.So I withdraw the post.

Sorry Rich, maybe I'm missing something here.
The issue is reporting the problems to the proper place so they may not be issues in the future. As we can't wait months for the dealers to get off their butts just who do we report to? Just who or where is the "proper place"? If the "proper place" isn't the horse's mouth, meaning the folks at Keystone/Montana, than please explain where the "proper place" is.

CountryGuy · 02-27-2006, 05:07 AM

The post is not useless, it is always very important to know what is the RIGHT way to have troubles recorded. Trouble is, that is not the reality for many of us.

I think we can all agree that all dealers are not created equal!! Our experiences are not created equal!! I have asked here many times, how do you really find out if a dealer is good or not?? How do you know his service department is really any good?? Our selling dealer is a name that is recognized in Goshen at the service center, the owner is supposed to be good friends with people who work in the Goshen service center. I can tell you that there were some very surprised faces when the Goshen people heard our story.

I will go back to previous statements, our take on this is that the entire system could use some serious revamping, and not just Keystone, the entire industry. It is WRONG to be treated the way we are when we are not within striking distance of our dealer. Others here have had great experiences, but not all of us have. The system, in my lowly opinion is flawed! PERIOD!

We understand Rich, you reported what was relayed to you as the way to get some of these items on the plate at Keystone. That might be the "Way", but it is not reality for many of us. For all of our reasons stated, and others. Besides, I cannot see a dealer reporting that we found some screws loose on the electrical panel. They will nod their heads, smirk as they turn their backs to us and in 3 seconds will have tossed the entire discussion in their mental trash cans. They are not gonna waste their time putting that on the computer system! Just my opinion, of course.

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 05:32 AM

I have no control over what the proper place is. Here is what I have learned .The data MUST get into the Warranty data base.Dealers do the Warranty work,They are paid BY keystone for the warranty work they do.keystone keeps a data base on ALL warranty repairs/expenditures.Example if the data shows that Montana had to correct the frame flex problem on 2000 Montana's at a cost to Montana of 300k in Labor and materials. That is going to raise a red flag.Sure there will be something going on between Montana and the vendor..but Montana takes the heat. As far as I have been told the only way the issue can get into the Warranty database is for the dealer to report the problem get approval to repair it and get payment from Keystone. Maybe there should be another way to get that info into the data base..Maybe Mark Krol CAN get that info into the data base. Maybe Keystone needs to have more control with the dealer on Warranty work. We know that Keystone reps look at this forum and we know that problems have been brought to the attention of Keystone via this forum.If the problems were done under warranty they got into the data base.We THINK that changes have been made on the line due to issues reported on this forum..We don't know for sure. As far as I can learn the Proper place is the Dealer via Warranty..not this forum. AND we will be in the RGV next winter and our 3400 will still be under warranty.if there is a dealer in the RGV that is saying they will only service units purchased there OR will not give equal treatment to my Warranty issues becauue I am from Ohio..I want name, rank and serial number now and we will deal with that issue.

CountryGuy · 02-27-2006, 05:42 AM

As far as we are aware, the Montana dealer here in the RGV is Goodings. We buy parts from them.

Parrothead · 02-27-2006, 05:47 AM

Carol I agree with you if we go to a dealer and tell him about a loose screw and that we want this reported to Keystone, we will probably be the laugh in the lunch room. Major things I agree but the small things, No. Life is to short to be constantly battling with a dealer and or Keystone. Besides as we all know a lot of these little problems turn up after warrant. What then - another data base?
Rich if you want to report every problem, go ahead, it does not mean the rest of us have to do this or will. And I bet in the long run we will have less stress than you and stress causes heart attacks so I'm going the no stress way.
Happy trails......................

richfaa · 02-27-2006, 06:09 AM

WARRANTY ,ISSUES, WARRANTY ISSUES, WARRENTY ISSUES. After WARRANTY ISSUES are not warranty issues.A loose screw is not a WARRANTY issue unless it unscrews from your TV set while under warranty and crashes to the floor.If we wish to take care of that ourselves ..OK. I never said or implied that we should report every little issue....I said WARRANTY ISSUES., WARRANTY ISSUES, WARRANTY ISSUES.It is also not reality to us to drive 500 miles to our purchasing dealer. No one HAS to do anything. I was relaying information and some of the the replies ARE causing me stress so I quit....end of post.. End of replies... OVER AND OUT...

jrgwdenner · 02-27-2006, 07:12 AM

Is someone shouting?

Well said, Sue. Besides what would our guys do if they didn't enjoy the hobby part of having an RV? We girls have chuckled so many times at the gatherings here in the RGV, where the guys, if they're within 15 feet of a rig, are bending over and checking out something on the rig. So enjoyable for so many.

patodonn · 02-27-2006, 07:15 AM

Rich: Do you know, or suspect, that your "list of 27 problem areas" was actuslly entered into the Montana QA system? Is there a mechanism for getting the data into that system from us, as owners, when we "find and fix", as opposed to just from dealers when they work on a warranty item? Did you discuss that with the Keystone (dealer?)rep?

When you get a chance, please e-mail me the "list of 27" you came up with..

Appreciate the ground work...best regards,

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