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Old 12-10-2012, 07:03 AM   #41
LonnieB
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Quote:
quote:By PSFORD99

I would like to hear Lonnie weigh in on this subject of E rated LT tires rated at 3042 on 7K axles, and fifth wheels with the GVWR of 15-16K
Ok, here is my weigh in.

I cannot, and will not, recommend to anyone that they install tires on any type of vehicle that aren't capable of safely carrying the loads that they will be subjected to. Does this mean I won't recommend an LT tire with a lower load rating than an ST tire? No, it doesn't. The reason is, LT and ST tires do not undergo the same testing procedures, and the ST tires aren't held to the same safety standards as the LT tires in order to come up with the load ratings. LT tires are rated to carry the load for which they are rated at speeds ranging from 99 mph up to 112 mph. St tires are rated at 65 mph maximum speed. LT tires have a large reserve capacity, ST tires have NO reserve capacity. LT tires have to be able to safely carry passengers at the speeds for which they are rated, ST tires cannot legally carry passengers at any speed. IMHO, if LT tires ONLY had to meet the standards the ST has to meet, the LT would far surpass the ST testing standards.

I have sold and installed the LT235/85R16 load range E on numerous Montana 3400's and many other brands of comparable size and weight, and I have not had one single failure due to the tire being overloaded.

In the end, it all boils down to what you feel comfortable with. If you feel safer with an ST rated tire, or a higher load/ply rated tire, then that is what you should go with. I have attached the following from DQDick to help you have a little better understanding of the difference between LT and ST tires. It's a little long, but I feel it's worth the time it takes to read before you make your final tire decision.

Quote:
quote:By DQDick

Ok, here it is again, by popular demand:


I have asked many times for someone to explain how a ST tire can be rated to carry more weight than a LT tire in a similar size, without a good answer.

The answer lies in what is called reserve capacity. To quote from Trailer Parts Superstore and this same statement exist on just about every tire site:

HEAVY DUTY 'LT' TRUCK / TRAILER TIRES
'LT' signifies the tire is a "Light Truck/Trailer" series that can be used on trailers that are capable of carrying heavy cargo such as equipment trailers.

If a tire size begins with 'LT' it signifies the tire is a "Light Truck-metric" size that was designed to be used on trailers that are capable of carrying heavy cargo or tow vehicles. Tires branded with the "LT" designation are designed to provide substantial reserve capacity to accept the additional stresses of carrying heavy cargo.

So what is reserve capacity? It is capacity beyond the rating of the tire, capacity that is held in reserve. This reserve capacity comes from the heavy-duty sidewall of the LT type tires. LT's rank at the top of the list when we look at P, ST and LT tires.

Now I finally have an answer to how a ST tire can be rated to carry more weight than a LT tire of similar size.

The ratings of ST tires infringe into the reserve capacity of the tire. This is double bad, because the design of the ST gives us a tire with less reserve capacity to start with as it has a lighter sidewall to start with as most ST tires are much lighter than their LT counterparts.

To quote one tire site:
"Put a different way, the load carrying capacity of an ST tire is 20% greater than an LT tire. Since durability is strictly a long term issue - and the results of a tire failure on a trailer are much less life threatening than on a truck - the folks that set up these load / inflation pressure relationships allow a greater......ah......let's call it load intensity."

There it is in print to be read. They make a calculated decision to give the ST tire a higher load rating because a failure is less life threatening.

I have on a number of occasions pointed out the weight difference between the different tires and have been told that does not matter. Well it does matter. The rubber in the average tire only makes up around 40 some percent of its weight, the rest is in the steel belts, gum strips, steel beads, and the carcass plies. The remaining 60 or so percent of the stuff in a tire is what builds in the reserve capacity.

So to review again, here are some weights:
1. Michelin XPS RIB LT235/85R16 LRE (rated to 3042lbs) Weight 55.41
2. Goodyear G614 LT235/85R16 LRG (rated to 3750lbs) Weight 57.5
3. Bridgestone Duravis R250 LT235/85R16 LRE(rated to 3042lbs) Weight 60
4. BFG Commercial TA LT235/85R16 LRE(rated to 3042lbs) Weight 44.44
5. Uniroyal Laredo HD/H LT235/85R16 LRE(rated to 3042lbs) Weight 44.44
6. GY Marathon ST235/80R16 LRE(rated to 3420lbs) Weight 35.4

So which tires on the list have the most reserve capacity? Well that is not a completely simple answer, as one of the tires is a G rate 110 lb tire and the rest are LRE at 80lb inflation. So if we disregard the G614, then the Michelin XPS RIB and the Bridgestone Duravis R250 due to their all-steel ply construction will have the most reserve capacity inherent in their construction. The twin Commercial TA and Laredo will be next and the Marathon would have little or no reserve capacity available because it was used up in its higher load rating, AND because of it's much lighter construction it had much less inherent reserve capacity to start with.

So what have we learn from this?

I think that the first thing that we learned was that a LT tire can be used at or near it max rated loading without having issues, as they built with "substantial reserve capacity to accept the additional stresses of carrying heavy cargo".

The second thing we may have learned is why ST tires are failing on mid to larger 5th wheels, in that they do not have inherent reserve capacity beyond that rated max loading. Again this is because they have less reserve capacity to start with and their greater "load intensity" used up any reserve capacity that might have been available.

Now, here is an interesting bit of information. I just called Maxxis Tech Line and asked the weights for two tires.

ST235/80R16 LRD 3000 lb rating at 65 lbs of air weights 38.58
ST235/80R16 LRE 3420 lb rating at 80 lbs of air weights 43.43

What??? The Maxxis load range E tire weights almost the same as the Commercial TA?? This is a ST tire that has heavier construction than the GY Marathon at 35.4 lbs. So it has more inherent reserve capacity due to its heavier construction.

Those that claimed its virtues maybe did not know why it was a better ST tire than some of the others, but there it is! It is a heavier built tire with more reserve capacity.

So as one chooses a replacement tire or is asking for an upgrade on a new trailer please get educated on where the reserve capacity exist. Is it inherent in the tire you choose or do you have to factor it into the weight rating of the tire you choose.

Those with heavy trailers that are switching to 17.5 rims and tires rated to 4805 lbs and getting a double injection of reserve capacity, in that they are using a tire with lots of inherent reserve capacity and the tire has much more capacity than the application. It is all starting to make sense.
 
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:26 AM   #42
jwedell
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PSFORD99,
That 12,740 lbs, is that that axle weight or GVW. Axle weight from the factory should be 9,880 lbs. If that's axle weight you already have 2,860 lbs already loaded without water, clothes or food. WOW

Shipping Weight = Axle Weight + Pin Weight
OR
Axle Weight = Shipping Weight - Pin Weight

If this gets any more confusing I'm selling everything and buying a tent.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:31 AM   #43
dieselguy
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Comforting to hear someone (LB) with a bit of "sand" stand behind years of experience. Perhaps we've ridden this horse far enough ........
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:33 AM   #44
PSFORD99
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That settles that, if an underrated tire is good enough then so be it. I will stick to a tire of equal rating or above .
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:43 AM   #45
PSFORD99
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by jwedell

PSFORD99,
That 12,740 lbs, is that that axle weight or GVW. Axle weight from the factory should be 9,880 lbs. If that's axle weight you already have 2,860 lbs already loaded without water, clothes or food. WOW

Shipping Weight = Axle Weight + Pin Weight
OR
Axle Weight = Shipping Weight - Pin Weight

If this gets any more confusing I'm selling everything and buying a tent.
Thats GVW weigh, and I apologize, I misunderstood your weights. I do understand the thinking behind the underated tires , but I will say I don't want to worry every time I throw something in the storage that I am going to go over my weight rating on an already underrated tire, but thats just me. I haul what I want with no worry or tire problems.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:09 AM   #46
Irlpguy
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There is lots of reference to the tire weight in these debates, some LT tires weigh more than some ST tires that have a rated capacity greater than the LT. Look back a good number of years ago, the “ply” rating on a tire was changed from the actual ply’s used in the construction of a tire to a standard that would represent the actual use of a given number of ply. So now when we see a Load Range E tire, the sidewalls are rated equivalent to 10 ply, but may have far less than 10 ply. An all steel constructed tire in Load range E might be a better all around tire, it may also weigh more, however the sidewall is still only equivalent to 10 ply.

Quote:
quote:
The ratings of ST tires infringe into the reserve capacity of the tire. This is double bad, because the design of the ST gives us a tire with less reserve capacity to start with as it has a lighter sidewall to start with as most ST tires are much lighter than their LT counterparts
This bit of double talk really baffles me. When you look at a Load Range E LT tire rated for 3042 lbs, the sidewall of that tire is still only rated at 10 ply. That tells me the sidewall rating is still no better than an ST tire with the same ply rating. So where is this phantom reserve capacity.

Quote:
quote:
To quote one tire site:
"Put a different way, the load carrying capacity of an ST tire is 20% greater than an LT tire. Since durability is strictly a long term issue - and the results of a tire failure on a trailer are much less life threatening than on a truck - the folks that set up these load / inflation pressure relationships allow a greater......ah......let's call it load intensity."
Now folks read this quote over a couple of times. It refers to durability as a long term issue and the life threatening result of the application of the tire as the way a tire is rated, however we don’t call it reserve capacity, we invent a new name called “load intensity”.
This is just plain garbage and I would love to see the tire site this gem came from.

When I read the content of those two quotes alone, I am afraid I question the accuracy of most of the rest of the content.

Tires using steel in the sidewalls will weigh more than a tire that does not, “BUT” the sidewall on a Load Range E tire is still only rated at 10 ply.

When you move up to the Load Range G tires you have an almost 50% increase in sidewall ply rating, that is significant and is why they are rated at 3750 lbs. It is also why a Load Range G tire is used in most if not all of the larger horse trailers. When my daughter hauls her horses down the road, she has about $75,000.00 in horse flesh in her very expensive trailer which uses Goodyear G614 tires.

This is just my opinion, it carries no more weight than the next persons, but before you take the document these quotes came from as gospel, please read it carefully, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in there.



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Old 12-10-2012, 11:46 AM   #47
PSFORD99
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy


There is lots of reference to the tire weight in these debates, some LT tires weigh more than some ST tires that have a rated capacity greater than the LT. Look back a good number of years ago, the “ply” rating on a tire was changed from the actual ply’s used in the construction of a tire to a standard that would represent the actual use of a given number of ply. So now when we see a Load Range E tire, the sidewalls are rated equivalent to 10 ply, but may have far less than 10 ply. An all steel constructed tire in Load range E might be a better all around tire, it may also weigh more, however the sidewall is still only equivalent to 10 ply.

Quote:
quote:
The ratings of ST tires infringe into the reserve capacity of the tire. This is double bad, because the design of the ST gives us a tire with less reserve capacity to start with as it has a lighter sidewall to start with as most ST tires are much lighter than their LT counterparts
This bit of double talk really baffles me. When you look at a Load Range E LT tire rated for 3042 lbs, the sidewall of that tire is still only rated at 10 ply. That tells me the sidewall rating is still no better than an ST tire with the same ply rating. So where is this phantom reserve capacity.

Quote:
quote:
To quote one tire site:
"Put a different way, the load carrying capacity of an ST tire is 20% greater than an LT tire. Since durability is strictly a long term issue - and the results of a tire failure on a trailer are much less life threatening than on a truck - the folks that set up these load / inflation pressure relationships allow a greater......ah......let's call it load intensity."
Now folks read this quote over a couple of times. It refers to durability as a long term issue and the life threatening result of the application of the tire as the way a tire is rated, however we don’t call it reserve capacity, we invent a new name called “load intensity”.
This is just plain garbage and I would love to see the tire site this gem came from.

When I read the content of those two quotes alone, I am afraid I question the accuracy of most of the rest of the content.

Tires using steel in the sidewalls will weigh more than a tire that does not, “BUT” the sidewall on a Load Range E tire is still only rated at 10 ply.

When you move up to the Load Range G tires you have an almost 50% increase in sidewall ply rating, that is significant and is why they are rated at 3750 lbs. It is also why a Load Range G tire is used in most if not all of the larger horse trailers. When my daughter hauls her horses down the road, she has about $75,000.00 in horse flesh in her very expensive trailer which uses Goodyear G614 tires.

This is just my opinion, it carries no more weight than the next persons, but before you take the document these quotes came from as gospel, please read it carefully, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in there.



I ignored those quotes long ago. rating is rating for a reason. It is very simple if your OE tire is rated for 3400 or more, the intention was that's what's needed to carry the weight, a tire rated for 3042 is not . I don't care what one puts on their trailers, but I do think it is bad advice ,E rated ties @ 3042 for 7K axles . The least I can say about this is one should be very careful when loading a fifth wheel when giving up that much in weight capacity, and the potential of overloading a tire. As one said this horse has been ridden pretty hard.

To the OP, your choice of tires is right on, they have served many very well.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:51 AM   #48
LonnieB
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Irlpguy,

My opinion of load range E tires on heavy trailers was asked for and I gave it. I never said the G614, or any other load range G tire wouldn't carry more weight, or wouldn't possibly be the better choice.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:59 PM   #49
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Lonnie I did not refer to any comment made by yourself, I only referenced the material in the original post that you attached to your most recent comments. I am not questioning your recommendations or integrity, only the statements made in that previous post that you referenced. Please do not take my comments as anything personal. They are not.

Most folks do not understand and certainly do not want to worry about the capacity of the tires and axles on their units, they just want to feel safe when they drive down the road, feeling their unit has already been installed with the proper tire, or they have been given “good” advice and have changed those tires out to something that should provide worry free travel for a long time. I think we do a disservice to all these folks by recommending a tire that reduces the carrying capacity of their Montana’s. They are seeking the best advise possible. It is very unfortunate that Keystone uses poor tires that folks do not feel safe in using. They should have used the optional G614 on all of these heavy units, end of story…

After making my earlier post I phoned 3 of the largest tire dealers in Canada, not one of them recommended putting a tire on that had a carry capacity rating less than that of the OE, and one went so far as to say they would simply not sell or install them on my 3402RL. All three were doubtful of warranty in such a case.

I may not put Goodyear G614 tires on when I replace the Marathons, but I will not be putting on a LT tire rated at 3042 lbs. I will replace them with G rated tires, I believe this to be good advise to all who want to upgrade their tires. The Goodyear G614 is not the only option on a G rated tire.

To kampk:: If I could buy G614’s here in Canada for that price I would buy them, here they would cost me $444.95 each. I think you will have every reason to feel safe with those tires. Happy and safe travels.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:38 PM   #50
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kampk wanted to know if he had a good price on G614 tires, how did we get into the rest of this?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:06 AM   #51
LonnieB
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Quote:
quote:By kampk

Are these the G614's we need to replace the "Marabombs" with?
We received a flyer from CW on G614 RST's for $349 each. Is this high / fair ?
Yes, that is a good and fair price as far as I'm concerned. I sell that tire for $357.61 mounted.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:57 AM   #52
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by 8.1al

kampk wanted to know if he had a good price on G614 tires, how did we get into the rest of this?
Now that we know that is a good price on the tires we can move on.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:43 AM   #53
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Roger that...
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:19 PM   #54
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This is what makes this forum AWESOME!!! 54 responses and 1275 reads in 5 days!! I like it! I learned something! and now I gotta go buy tires!

Thanks to all

Alan
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:27 PM   #55
Irlpguy
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Alan, I sincerely hope that in the end you were more enlightened than confused in your search as to what to buy for tires.

Good luck and many happy, safe miles with whatever you choose.

Looking forward to your next post on a Ham radio install...
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:32 PM   #56
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If anyone ever wanted to know why belong to and read this forum, this thread is the perfect example !!!! I have replaced our brand new Marathons with 5 G614's. I am another one that believes that the safety is worth the lower mental anguish if you have to do use it. I have not had the uneven wearing that others have had but will now watch closely for it. The variety of opinions back up by facts is priceless. Thanks to all those that clearly collectd, organized, and shared your experiences and infromation from those of us that are new to these big rigs. It is impressive!
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:47 AM   #57
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THE ONLY REASON GOODYEAR GETS A 3420 LB LOAD RATING ON THE MARATHON THAT CAME ON YOUR TRAILER IS BECAUSE THE SPEED RATING IS 65MPH!
I SAID IN ANOTHR THREAD AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN, MY PERSONAL CHOICE BASED ON MY EXPOSURE TO COMPLAINTS OR PRAISES IS THAT I AM BETTER OFF WITH A HIGH SPEED RATED LT 'E' TIRE VS THE MARATHON 65 MPH trailer TIRE THAT CAME ON YOUR TRAILER

GOODYEAR MARATHON ST235/80R16 LRE RADIAL TIRE



TIRE SPECIFICTIONS

Size: ST235/80R16

Load Range: E

PLY RATING: 10

CAPACITY: 3420 LBS @ 80 PSI



The high speed rating for ALL trailer tires is 65mph which is set by the Department of Transportation.

If you have any questions as to fitment please call BEFORE you order.

FREE shipping to the lower 48 states. We do ship worldwide however you will need to contact us for freight rates.

Feel free to contact us at 419.272.2277 M-F 8-5 Eastern Time Zone if you have any questions or need a quote on tires mounted on these wheels.

We are a full time retail and wholesale business so questions my not be answered over the weekend.
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:42 AM   #58
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mamestra

I have read a lot about tires on this forum, some people, lately have been reporting trouble with the G614, and one of the main recommended tires was the Michelin, this was recommended by a person with a tire dealership, so I hope that I'm doing the right thing. It's not that I didn't want to spend more on a compressor, I just don't have the room.

I haven't yet read pages 4, 5, and 6 of this thread but wanted to ask about what problems people are having with the G614's. I know this thread has questioned what appears to be unusual wear on the outside edges. Ours shows that same thing but the actual wear is really minimal. It's more that those edges show darker than the rest of the tread and there does seem to be a small amount of additional wear. Ours shows the same thing but after 2 1/2 years on these tires with zero problems I just am not seeing a problem. Maybe when I find out what is going on with the edges I'll feel differently but so far the tires have otherwise performed flawlessly. We haven't done a ton of miles in that 2 1/2 years but it's somewhere around 20,000 miles, maybe a little less. I'd have to go to the truck and check my log for sure.

So what other problems are people having with the G614's? Someday I'll need to replace tires again so I'd really like to know.
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by PSFORD99

I strongly suggest the same, considering it just plain bad advice for someone to recommend any tire regardless of quality if it does not meet or exceed the OE rating, yes, and I repeat many do it. I have no argument that the Michelin is not a good tire, it just plain does not meet the weight rating these fifth wheels need . I would like to hear Lonnie weigh in on this subject of E rated LT tires rated at 3042 on 7K axles, and fifth wheels with the GVWR of 15-16K
I'm having trouble understanding why I should care about how new tires compare to the OE tire ratings? I'm more interested in whether the tire's rating exceeds the actual load on the tire. The only way to know that is to weigh the rig on each wheel, which I highly recommend, anyhow. So am I missing something?

PSFord99, you've been around here quite awhile and I respect your opinion.
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:51 AM   #60
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mhs4771

Could be interesting to see how it would play out if you had a blowout on an LT only rated for 3042 on a unit with 7K axles. Could an Insurance Adjuster use the under rated tires as a reason to deny a claim for damages?? Just thinking out loud here.
I doubt the adjuster would give a hoot about axle ratings. If the damage was because of a tire blowout they'd care more about the actual load on that tire. The newer (late 2007 and later) larger Montanas come with 7k axles and most of them came from the factory with tires rated less than the 3500 lbs per axle side unless you ordered the G614's.
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