New 2005 3295RK and NOT HAPPY - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

D and M On The Road · 11-21-2004, 07:04 AM

Wow....... either we have very few problems or we have massive problems with our units.

I don't know if it's possible, but I wonder if Keystone has thought of keeping a log of who exactly does what assembly work on each unit and then when a unit turns out to have factory assembly related problems, to check and see if it's the same workers on each of those units?

Assembly problems, especially major plumbing and electrical problems absolutely need to be stopped at the factory level and I'd want to know if there is a pattern of the same worker(s) at the factory doing the sub-standard work. It sounds like a need to retrain some workers or give 'em the boot.

We bought our 2002 3295RK new off the dealer's lot and aside from the dreaded bedroom slide crack, we haven't had any problems with ours. *Knock-on-wood*

sreigle · 11-21-2004, 11:28 AM

I'd like to say 'thanks' to those who have posted about the problems. I think in a thread like this it's important for all of these things to be visible. Not just the good. Not just the bad. After all, that's one of the things that makes this forum unique. So, thanks to everyone for posting this kind of information. That has to be helpful to those trying to make an informed buying decision.

Montana_2505 · 11-22-2004, 04:45 AM

Interesting comments from everyone. I agree totally that quality control is the problem. Besides at the factory.... We did buy ours off the lot (OK, the Refrig is ENTIRELY our fault for being so enamored over the looks and arrangement that we simply didn't measure the refrig--so no use even talking about that anymore), but the dealer kept this RV for 10 days after we decided to buy that they might go over EVERYTHING to make sure all components worked. Some 90 point check or something like that!

SREIGLE,
Thanks and we can tell you realllly put a lot of thought into your reply...but....Perhaps in 2002, Keystone paid a bit more attention as to making sure it's products were done right. They didn't get their good reputation (which seems to be deteriorating) by making shoddy RV's in the past. This is not our first RV either...it's our 5th. We've had a Shasta, a Sportsman, a Thor (which we traded in on this one only because we wanted a bit bigger area,more storage, and a different floor plan). Our Shasta was 6 years old when we bought it--2 years and never had a problem. The Sportsman was 13 years old when we sold it this spring (no problems that were from poor workmanship) and the Thor we traded in for this Montana. We bought the 1 year old Thor from hubby's partner in N. Dakota last Feb. (who bought a King of the Road) No complaints AT ALL structurally or electronically OR Insulation wise on our Thor!
(And, it had a 10cuft Refrig--oh, yeah, I wasn't going to talk about that frig again!! and an RCA Surround Sound that WORKED!)
We debated about a King of the Road or this Montana. (the K O T R had 10' frige and double-paned windows and a NORMAL thermostat)---SAME PRICE as the Montana! Was a long tough decision as both had features we liked.This one had more storage, and we liked the floor plan better. Both manufacturers had a good reputation.
Hubby inspects and supervises repairs on drilling rigs for the past 30 years--and we have built and remodeled 5 stick houses. We're not sit-around uninformed tourists! We have plenty of electronics (surround sound, etc) so it's not like we don't know how to use our hands or our brains. We know how to repair a pc and program a VCR AND Surround sound. Dealer couldn't even fix this unit.
Really.....telling us that the DVD must say "SURROUND SOUND" to have all the speakers working?? And that some DVD's only have maybe 30 seconds of surround sound in the whole movie??? That was Dealer's excuse for it not working. We were in Walmart yesterday, and I searched thru every DVD they had to find one that said "SURROUND SOUND". Guess what.....they all said "Dolby Digital" and nothing more. We're not asking for a $5000 unit, just a unit that WORKS in brand new RV! We spent at least 5 hours (Before the week in the shop) trying every setting) and have spent 2 hours since they "replaced" the unit trying to get it to work. Hubby switched the speaker wires so at least we get sound from all the speakers and can use it when watching TV. All Mono, of course, but we "pretend". If they're not going to include a Surround that WORKS, and we're going to have to buy one ANYWAYS, why don't they just NOT PUT ONE IN???? and take the $50 off the price of the RV??
FURNACE: Pretend you had the remote thermostat and it went wacko, or your batteries died, or your nephew flushed it down the toilet. It's 30F outside, winds about 40-50 mph, and sleeting and snowing outside. You can't walk over to the wall thermostat and turn on the furnace. You must call nearest dealer (how far away??) and hope they have one..... And if they don't, you wait a week to 10 days for them to order it. There's nothing you can do on your own. Most folks can replace a wall thermostat if there's a problem..... For example, Dealer said our remote was indeed malfunctioning....and replaced it.
It's been a week, and it does seem to be working as it should, but knowing it can happen again is NO commfort.
In our kitchen slideout, we have a coffee pot. Nothing else that wasn't prewired (Microwave, fireplace, and the entertainment center)
To use the toaster, we must unplug the coffeepot. We have two other plugs that are on this circuit, but useless. Bad, sloppy, inconsiderate design.
Towel Rack on the shower door--DEALER told us about the door shattering when using the towel rack to open the door. Not to worry that WE would use the towel rack as a door handle, but it's just inviting trouble. If DEALER warns you, then it's obviously a known hazard.
DEALER installed Trailer hitch and never mentioned voiding warrenty.
Said I wasn't gonna, but...we didn't EXPECT a refrig "just like home". But we could put a frozen pizza in our Thor refrig. Hardly anything in this one. And we know how to economize space. We've done tent camping, too. But we didn't pay this much for our tent, or our Shasta OR our Sportsman OR our THOR.
Thanks for the tip about the back wall where the wires come in. We will check that out amoung all the other little spots that may allow seeping in of cold air.
After Dealer insulated and closed up hole at trailer hitch, kitchen floor is walkable (No ICE!) and cabinets are MUCH better.
I've already put window film on the windows. Did it on some of them before it even got cold. And we have two electric heaters also to cut down on propane use.
Yes, the leaking bedroom is serious. And Dealer's caulk job is NOT PRETTY! Hasn't rained again enough to see if we're going to stay dry. Only had some light sleet and snow.
Dealer fixed noisy bathroom fan. If this unit was 2 years old we would replace the fan with an even quieter one, but....it's BRAND NEW!
Dealer told us the Fantastic Fan thermostat NEVER works. However, I did figure that one out. It does work and we are pleased with the fantastic fan.
Most NORMAL thermostats allow you to either turn on the AC or the Furnace, but not both at the same time. Ahhhh, to have a NORMAL thermostat.....
We're aware that DEALER should replace the propane tank if something doesn't work. DEALER is good at making excuses for not being responsible for much of anything. Yes, and hubby tried to UN-stick valve. DEALER had filled tanks in PREP Checkup before we picked up our RV, but obviously didn't "check" them.
As far as our neighbors RV's: We've been next to them for 10 months, and when you're living this close (15' apart), it's hard to keep problems too much of a secret.
Remember, your RV was build a couple of years ago, and Keystone may not be the same today....
Steve, One more thing...I know your thoughts were intended to help ease "our pain"!! And we appreciate it.

Sue · 11-22-2004, 05:31 AM

Luci & Ricki,
I hope some day you get to the point to enjoy your Montana.

As in everything else, we have had problems with somethings and others seem to never have problems with the same product. Just like my Ford Truck. I know that it was just a fluke and I would buy another one. It's too bad that the one that gets off the line missing that care quality and control ruins it and puts a bad taste in your mouth, but it's reality and it does happen.

I also understand how one feels when they get something with problems that they tend not to try that product/manufactuer again.

I hope you get the bugs worked out and start enjoying it. I for one would pull that thermostat off the wall and replace it. That's crazy.

Montana_2505 · 11-22-2004, 06:21 AM

SUE, thanks.
When we put it in the shop for a week, we told them we wanted a NORMAL thermostat in lieu of this remote control. It shows this alternative in the manual on the furnace. DEALER says it's not wired for a NORMAL thermostat and therefore, we're STUCK WITH IT! And it's not that we're the only one with this problem per the dealer. Nor the other problems we have. It was obvious from talking to them and they to us that they were not at all surprised at the problems.

We're pretty "up" on electronics, but there are a lot of folks out there going to full-timing who aren't. I feel sorry for them.

What we just cannot fathom is WHY Keystone would want to install what I'm sure they consider "innovative", but more complicated and some cheap components instead of tried and true equipment. And not even checking it out before delivery. Just asking for trouble. Nothing seems to be improved...ESPECIALLY customer relations.

CountryGuy · 11-22-2004, 07:32 AM

Luci and Ricky,

Consider ditching the dealer, like for the air coniditioner, call the manufacturer!

For what it is worth, here is something we heard in our travels through warranty work: The dealers, and their service departments, are offered training from Keystone, and MANY of them don't bother to attend or send their workers. So, how are they supposed to be effective in fixing our units?

The dealers are supposed to go over the units before delivery, but sometimes they do not. Each dealer is limited by the effectiveness of his employees. Some employees are worth their weight in gold, others are not worth a pot to (well, you all know this phrase).......

Have said this before, will say again, if the dealer and his employees cannot show you where the pull for the galley water dump is, are they gonna be able to tell you how to make this stereo, fantastic fan and heat/air controller work???

I hear the people at Fantastic Vent company are VERY nice and VERY helpful. Call them, they know more about their fan than your dealer does!

To put it quite bluntly, your dealer sounds about like mine, after the sale, WORTHLESS. And, yes, we had our fair share of problems with our 3295. In fact we had more than our fair share, we got someone else's too. (small attempt at sick humor there)

Read this forum, you will see that many dealers keep rigs weeks and weeks and weeks and don't do half the repairs on the list. They say, ohhh, we are waiting for parts. I have chatted with a few of the employees of the parts distribution center in Goshen (Keystone). I have reason to believe that these dealers just sorta FORGET to order parts. Sometimes parts are on backorder from the manufacturer. BUT, if Keystone has parts, they ship parts, not within WEEKS, but within DAYS!

Is Keystone a perfect company, nope, AND they have a limited number of vendors to choose from, we are still waiting for a new vendor to come to bat and make ovens! One distributor for ovens, ONE!

It is a very complicated business, and also can be a very exciting one, the business of building and selling RV's. I would imagine, it is not for the faint of heart.

Who is to blame?? Keystone?? Vendors?? Dealers?? Some of all, some of none.

By the way, welcome to the forum, we think you purchased the PERFECT floor plan! OH, we have one too??

SOON, we hope you get all this warranty stuff out of the way and be able to enjoy your 3295. We hope our warranty work is over and done with too. Overall, we are very happy with our choice of rig, and Keystone, oh, if you ever get a chance go to Goshen and go through the plant. As those who attended the 2004 Montana Rally this fall will tell you, one tour and you might look at the entire situation differently.

Good luck with your rig and it's components, keep us posted how you are doing.

mazeeff · 11-22-2004, 07:38 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Luci and Ricky

FURNACE: Pretend you had the remote thermostat and it went wacko, or your batteries died, or your nephew flushed it down the toilet. It's 30F outside, winds about 40-50 mph, and sleeting and snowing outside. You can't walk over to the wall thermostat and turn on the furnace.

I have a 2005 3255RL, and you can certainly run the heat/air without the remote. The manual clearly states this. On the front of the wall unit are two buttons. One labled "cool" and one labeled "heat". If you push the "cool" button the unit automatically cools to 75 degrees. Pushing the "heat" button heats to 68 degrees. I use these buttons more than the remote, due to the fact that the default tempertures seem to work for me. There is NO need for the remote to work, to have heat and/or A/C!

mazeeff · 11-22-2004, 07:46 AM

The new wall unit for the fantastic vent fan is a little hard to understand, but here is how it works. When in "automatic" mode, the numbers represent temperature. When in "manual" mode the numbers mean % of fan speed.

Glass Guy · 11-22-2004, 08:20 AM

You might want to make sure the lid is not sticking to the seal, If that is the case the cover will not open and the fan will not work, when you turn on the fan if the lid does not open then you have a problem with the lid and seal, there seams to be a problem with this happening on these units, if that is your situation then have someone on the roof when you turn it on and help it to open, then use some 303 lube I believe that is what the was mentioned on this forum before, to lube up the seal this will work for awhile and then you will have to do it again when it starts to stick again.

Montana_1683 · 11-22-2004, 03:00 PM

We also have an 05 3295RK, our most be a early model. Doesn't have the remote temp control. Haven't had any leaks around the slides, but did have a leak in the back. Water seeped in from around the outlet above the computer desk. It was really raining hard when in Arkansas. Unable to find the source and hasn't leaked since that I noticed anyway. As for the Quest entertainment system, we don't program it, since it needs reprogramming after RV is disconnected from electric source. Usually never in one spot for a long period of time. Surround sound only works if DVD is a 5.2 programmed disc. Only inconvience is the toggle switch for fireplace/microwave. Of course we don't use the fireplace that much, but have found it to provide suffiecient heat when needed. The metal baskets thought would be a better item than the wooden drawers in a 2004 model seen at the dealership, but needed to put a shim on one side to tighened the space to prevent the bottom basket from comming out of its track. Sorry to hear about all the problems you are having, so far we really love ours.

Gary

sreigle · 11-22-2004, 03:53 PM

Like the others stated above, I hope your Montana gets fixed to the point you can truly enjoy it. They really are good rigs, although there have been a few lemons like in any brand including the really high dollar rigs.

I'm stuck on the thermostat thing. I'm not an electrical expert, know just enough to be dangerous. But I can't for the life of me figure out why the wall unit couldn't be replaced with a 'normal' thermostat and the remote tossed out. Anybody know the answer to that? The wall unit is probably a receiver for signals from the remote. Regardless whether the remote has sensors for actual temp or not, the wall unit has to have wiring to send received signals for changes to the furnace, right? Am I missing something?

fulltimedreamer · 11-22-2004, 05:34 PM

Steve,

I think you're right. The only thing I can think of that might be different is I think I read where some of these units have heat strips in the Airconditioners. If that is the case then you might need to use a thermostat that can control the dual systems. I replaced my thermostat at home where I have a heat pump with a natural gas backup for when the temp gets really low. I just had to get a "two stage" thermostat that could switch between the heat pump and gas. I'd think the heat strip would work in a similar fashion. I may be off-base here, but just my 2 cents. Maybe we have a HVAC guy lurking out there that can shed more light on this.

mazeeff · 11-23-2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by sreigle

Like the others stated above, I hope your Montana gets fixed to the point you can truly enjoy it. They really are good rigs, although there have been a few lemons like in any brand including the really high dollar rigs.

I'm stuck on the thermostat thing. I'm not an electrical expert, know just enough to be dangerous. But I can't for the life of me figure out why the wall unit couldn't be replaced with a 'normal' thermostat and the remote tossed out. Anybody know the answer to that? The wall unit is probably a receiver for signals from the remote. Regardless whether the remote has sensors for actual temp or not, the wall unit has to have wiring to send received signals for changes to the furnace, right? Am I missing something?

Steve. The remote control unit can be replaced with a regular unit. I spoke with the comapany that makes them about doing just that. The A/C and furnace are the same unit regardless of whether you have the remote or not. The wiring is identical, I'm told! There is a temperature sensor in both the remote and the wall unit. You can have the remote sense the temp, or the wall unit. I was planning on replacing mine with a digital Hunter thermostat, but the dealership replaced my wall unit, and it is now working fine. The problem I was having, was that the wall unit temp sensor was off by 10 degrees. You had to program it for 90 to get 80. I talked to the factory about whether there was a calibration adjustment inside or not, and they did not have a clue. Now that my remote unit is working, I am quite happy with it. It is great to just sit in my recliner, and control the temp without ever having to get up!!!

Montana_1925 · 11-23-2004, 01:58 AM

Our Montana is beautiful inside also, but it's just a pretty face. Our 2001 Montana is also a nightmare and hopefully we will either get it working properly or trade it for a brand that works. I typed up a list of all the problems that we have either fixed or are in the process of fixing and the list numbered into the 20's. I will put in a plug for our old 84 Kit Sportsmaster

. Great quality and never a problem. How I wish for those days.....

BillyRay · 11-23-2004, 02:52 AM

I feel your pain!....there isn't anything anyone could possibly say to make it any easier. if it helps, in the past we have had a brand new unit that we ended up having to trade back in due to major problems....so like I said, I feel your pain!...still doesn't make it any easier. we have just excepted that no matter what brand we get, we're going to get screwed one way or the other. I do have to say although I have experienced many problems with montana...probably more than most....Keystone still works with us....but it is very anoying....

hang in there and let us know if there is anything you may need for advise.

mazeeff · 11-23-2004, 02:57 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by BillyRay

I feel your pain!....there isn't anything anyone could possibly say to make it any easier. if it helps, in the past we have had a brand new unit that we ended up having to trade back in due to major problems....so like I said, I feel your pain!...still doesn't make it any easier. we have just excepted that no matter what brand we get, we're going to get screwed one way or the other. I do have to say although I have experienced many problems with montana...probably more than most....Keystone still works with us....but it is very anoying....

hang in there and let us know if there is anything you may need for advise.

One thing we did to reduce the potential of a bad purchase, was to run through an extensive PDI. We spent two solid days running through the PDI prior to our purchase. That way we had the option of walking away, before we put any money down! If the dealer refuses to let you do this, walk away, and find another dealer!

captbanjo · 11-24-2004, 04:19 AM

My two cents: we've had a few problems, the most serious of them a leak in the bedroom slide. The other issues involved a leaking water line beneath a sink, a loose light fixture, and not a lot much more. Overall, the quality seems pretty good for the standards today. I have issues such as the heater running too loudly, no heat in the bathroom, etc., but I also want to suggest something; maybe the more technology and sophistication that goes into a rig equals more potential problems. With sensor guided vents, multiple slides, fireplaces, multi-tasked ovens, etc., there is a plethora of potential pitfalls present. It does sound like an occasional person here gets a lemon, but we would rate our 3400RL about a B to B+. One thing's for sure, when we get into our site and slide those four sides out...wow!

Montana_2505 · 11-24-2004, 08:30 AM

MAZEEFF,
Steve. The remote control unit can be replaced with a regular unit. I spoke with the comapany that makes them about doing just that. The A/C and furnace are the same unit regardless of whether you have the remote or not. The wiring is identical, I'm told! There is a temperature sensor in both the remote and the wall unit.

Just wondering if we have the same unit...Ours is a Dometic Duo-Therm Furnace/AC. Cause we sure wanna get rid of the remote control if possible. Thanks

mazeeff · 11-24-2004, 08:34 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Luci and Ricky
Just wondering if we have the same unit...Ours is a Dometic Duo-Therm Furnace/AC. Cause we sure wanna get rid of the remote control if possible. Thanks

Yes. We have the same exact A/C & Furnace. Should be a easy swap out to a Hunter thermostat or the old manual Duotherm thermostat.

mobilrvn · 11-26-2004, 04:57 PM

As a relatively new MOC member, I have spent a lot of time reading as much about Montana problems and shortcomings as possible--basically as a forewarning since we had already purchased a new '04 3575. Even though we had been fulltiming for 11 yrs. and I spent sometime off and on for a couple of yrs. selling RVs, we didn't do much in the way a PDI because we just wanted to be in the Montana ASAP. If I had known that MOC existed before we bought, you can bet that the dealer's techs would have been a lot busier than they were when we took the rig.

Some problems are those of the buyer who get blinded by the glow of a new RV and forget to check that it actually meets all or most of our needs--buying an RV is always a compromise. We fell in love with the 3400, but after cooling off and revisiting it a few times we knew that it wouldn't really work for us. When we settled on the 3575 (a bigger 5W than we had set out to purchase), we knew the size of the refridgerator and that there was no heating vent in the "boom-boom" room. We knew that we had less storgage space than the old, smaller rig, but didn't realize how much less. I had forgotten that the dealers must now post the actual rig weight in each new RV. Might have purchased another brand if we'd remembered, but we like our Montana very much, regardless.

Some problems are ones that seem to come with RVs. The tire/axle problems have been around a long time. I know that we suffered this quite a bit with the old 5W starting with bad Goodyear tires and, I'm sure, an overloaded 5W in the beginning. Sure that the axles were bent a few times and we had to had them re-aligned several times.

Equipment problems are difficult for the manufacturer, but prompt, firm but fair pressure usually gets it fixed or replaced. Often is is best to go directly to the supplier, especially if it is under warranty. The supplier wants to retain the manufacturer's business, and they will go out of business if they can't meet the manufacturers' needs. However, sometimes it is difficult when there is only one or two suppliers. In our experience with Keystone this is a place they fall short--we had a question regarding one of the products used in the 5W and they would not give us the supplier's name.

The manufacturer has to supply a product that meets our needs and expectations and makes them a reasonable profit. Seems like this is where Keystone has problems, mostly with quality control and some design shortcomings. There should be NO problems with leaking S/Os with the amount of experience building and designing S/Os in the industry, or any leaks for that matter. There should be no wiring problems with mickey mouse fixes--spend the money and install another circuit and charge the customer for it. I know the list goes on about what isn't done right, but what is right (some complains seem very petty)? I accept little things and just fix them myself because I don,t want to take a day and drag the unit to a dealer to have them fix a few little items, half of which still won't done be right. Same kind of problems with our last new stick house.

Here is a suggestion I would like to make, but don't have a clue how to do it myself. It would be great if there were a forum where we could go to list the things that were broken, misaligned, not working, inconvient to operate, poorly finished, etc. by model and year--a checklist sort of thing. Since a lot of Montana owners buy repeatedly and are aware of MOC, at least they would know where the potential bugs are before buying and accepting a new or used unit. Something like this sure would point out where the flaws are and maybe Keystone would get ahead of the problems if they saw them listed---sure would give trends and maybe where to look for solutions.

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