Weight Advisors

[Jdrobone]

I thing you're right Phil, some people are getting carried away with the PC - are they PC police or PC advisers?
I just wonder why it is up to one person to "establish" accuracy - aren't we just giving our opinions, opinions being like certain other items, everybody has one.
No offense,
Jerry

[Phil P]

Hello

I find this tread very interesting.


The real point here is safety!

This summer my wife and I were driving north along the west coast of the US. I believe what we saw was in Oregon. There was a highway patrol car sitting on the right side of the road facing us with his lights flashing. It became apparent by the wreckage we saw that the accident had happened several hours before. There was a Dodge Durango with a travel trailer still hooked to the back. It was facing the wrong way the travel trailer he had on the back was 25 plus ft long. It was obvious the Durango had rolled over at least once. There wasn’t any superstructure above the floor of the trailer. This was spread out on the side of the road for a long way before we could see the wreckage in the ditch.

Now apply what we saw to a ¾ ton truck pulling a 15,905 lb Montana. All may go well until something goes wrong.

I don’t exceed the weight ratings posted for our TV or our Montana.

Phil P

[bncinwv]

I told DW that I was considering breaking my MOC pledge of not commenting on weight related threads and signing up to be a weight adviser. That's when the fight started!!!!
Bingo

[Phil P]

You know Bingo I don’t see anything here to create a fight. With all of the information if one new owner that has never had any experience with towing any thing bigger that a Bass boat takes the time to look at the ratings a decide they should maybe consider taking some precautions to make their RV experience a little safer then all of the hoopla is worth it.

Phil P

[pineranch]

I'm taking the same pledge as Bingo. When the same name keeps popping up on the same issue it starts to sound like NAG NAG NAG. Heard a joke about that, I think they called her 3 HORSES.

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P

Hello

I find this tread very interesting.


The real point here is safety!

This summer my wife and I were driving north along the west coast of the US. I believe what we saw was in Oregon. There was a highway patrol car sitting on the right side of the road facing us with his lights flashing. It became apparent by the wreckage we saw that the accident had happened several hours before. There was a Dodge Durango with a travel trailer still hooked to the back. It was facing the wrong way the travel trailer he had on the back was 25 plus ft long. It was obvious the Durango had rolled over at least once. There wasn’t any superstructure above the floor of the trailer. This was spread out on the side of the road for a long way before we could see the wreckage in the ditch.

Now apply what we saw to a ¾ ton truck pulling a 15,905 lb Montana. All may go well until something goes wrong.

I don’t exceed the weight ratings posted for our TV or our Montana.

Phil P

OK, seems you've got a lot of knowledge tucked under your hat. Tell me what that 3500 you drive is gonna do with that 15,905 lb Montana my 2500 won't do? We have the same engine, tranny, rear axle, and brakes. Sure, you have a couple more wheels on the ground, but I bet your truck weight eats a big part of that up when you try to stop. Not too sure with the 17" wheels and tires, I don't have almost as much rubber on the ground as you anyway.

I don't have a 15K pound plus Montana, but I would like to see just what the big difference is. I'm waiting.........

[CamillaMichael]

Have never thought that "weight police" was anything but poking fun at a "heavy subject." Even if someone is offering an opinion on my, or someone else's, rig's weight, so what? We share information on this forum as well as humor.

[bncinwv]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and think a little about what is being stated about an "expert" should provide input. The MOC is comprised of everyday people with a common interest and a heck of a lot of experience. And yes there are a few experts who I hold in very high regard. The strength of this forum is that members offer real-life experienced opinions based upon their trials and tribulations that they have been through during the course of owning their rig. It is an internet forum and not an encyclopedia. I am always interested in what everyone's opinions and thoughts are so that I can personally make an "informed" decision based on forum advice, my own research and gut feelings. I am a devout believer that no one has the right to tell some one else what to do in any regard and in particular on an internet-based forum. I have received more value from the MOC forum members than I could ever afford to donate to the forum. I hope the forum members, new or old, realize that all we can do is offer advice!! Antagonistic, know-it-alls do nothing more than introduce discord into the greatest forum on the web!! I offer advice, sometimes correct, many times not-so-correct, and I hope everyone treats it as such and makes their own personal decisions based on everything they can learn from many sources. Sorry for the soapbox approach, but I am having a difficult time staying silent on the incendiary nature that this thread has evolved into!! Now that is my opinion, and my story and I am sticking to it.
If I offended anyone with my ranting I will apologize up front!
Bingo
On edit: and the mention of a fight starting was an obviously misled attempt at a joke which was referencing the joking response of the DW when I told her I was considering becoming a "weight adviser" which had nothing to do with trailer weights and truck capabilities.

[CORattler]

I totally agree. Well put!!

quote:Originally posted by Countryfolks

Let's face it folks, the expression 'weight police' is an emotionally loaded, negative, prejudicial term, usually aimed at someone who expresses an opinion in favor of staying within the manufacturers written vehicle capacities or explains the methodology they used. Changing the words/label will not change the intent behind their usage. I feel any use of these or other negative terms or labels should not be used in our posts, even teasingly or in jest. Disagreement with someones post or an opposing opinion can be expressed without using loaded terminology of this sort. We must always remember that our posts are being read by a lot of folks whom we've never met and our posts define us to them.

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by ols1932

Time to close this thread down.

Orv, why close the thread? You're pulling with a 3/4 ton, and I haven't seen you mention wrecking your rig. I've seen a 1 ton with a light 5th wheel wrecked. Sometimes it happens. I think driver alertness and skill has a lot more to do with it than a 3/4 or 1 ton truck does. Seen a bunch of 18 wheelers wrecked up on I20 too. I think a little common sense goes a hell of a long ways.

[Bill-N-Donna]

I personally try and avoid posting any advice, or opinions as to what others should do concerning their own units. I have been towing for several years and I haven’t learned so much that I can’t learn something new every day. I really enjoy reading on this forum especially when someone tells about their actual experiences they were involved with. This forum is very unique in that conversations like this can be carried on in a very civilized manner. I agree with the statements whole heartedly what Rich said about staying within the ratings and specs.

In my younger days when I started towing I didn’t give much thought about something being overweight or how it could cause a problem. I didn’t worry about those things until later on. All I would think about was whether or not this truck could pull that thing up the next hill. As you get older you get wiser and I must say that I got wiser through experience. Whenever you are traveling down an interstate towing a trailer with a high top van that has an extended hitch and things go wrong you will wake up pretty fast. After one experience that could have went very bad but fortunately didn’t; I became much more conscientious of how the rig needed to fit together and what was needed for sway control, weight distribution, balance etc.. I personally am glad to see these types of discussions on here because a person can learn so much through the experience of what others have gone through.

A few years ago we didn’t have the internet or the opportunity we have now to share information this way. I find this to be a very enlightening and helpful tool. How many times have we read “the MOC forum came through again?” We are always learning and hopefully with the forum a new RVer will find much more needed knowledge by reading about it before they find out through their own experience. Let’s not forget where we came from and where we are now.

Thank you Montana Owners Club for providing this discussion forum!

[Dave Nowlin]

The problem here is lack of accurate info. A poster by the handle of "wadcutter" is a retired Highway Patrol Commander in the weight enforcement area. He posts on RV.net and stated that all our 5th wheel trailers are well within federal limits when we tow them with our vehicles. Now to the facts. The difference between a Ford F-250 & F-350 with the same option packages is the springs. That's all. The engine,transmission and brakes are the same. I don't know if the same is true with GM & Dodge. I also know the weight ratings are recommendations. You can bet Ford's lawyers have told them to include a huge fudge factor in these ratings to cover their backside. In the 2011 owners manual, the F-250 & F-350 are rated the same where towing capacity is concerned. I have tried to find better info on the internet and haven't been able to. When we put on our thinking caps we will realize that both of these trucks have the same towing and stopping ability. The difference here is how much will the rear end of your truck squat with the Monte hooked up. More than a few here run airbags whether they have an F-250 or F-350. When that is done it appears the playing field becomes level. If you have evidence to prove me wrong, please present it for the educational benefit of us all.

[PSFORD99]

quote:Originally posted by Dave Nowlin

The problem here is lack of accurate info. A poster by the handle of "wadcutter" is a retired Highway Patrol Commander in the weight enforcement area. He posts on RV.net and stated that all our 5th wheel trailers are well within federal limits when we tow them with our vehicles. Now to the facts. The difference between a Ford F-250 & F-350 with the same option packages is the springs. That's all. The engine,transmission and brakes are the same. I don't know if the same is true with GM & Dodge. I also know the weight ratings are recommendations. You can bet Ford's lawyers have told them to include a huge fudge factor in these ratings to cover their backside. In the 2011 owners manual, the F-250 & F-350 are rated the same where towing capacity is concerned. I have tried to find better info on the internet and haven't been able to. When we put on our thinking caps we will realize that both of these trucks have the same towing and stopping ability. The difference here is how much will the rear end of your truck squat with the Monte hooked up. More than a few here run airbags whether they have an F-250 or F-350. When that is done it appears the playing field becomes level. If you have evidence to prove me wrong, please present it for the educational benefit of us all.

When I first joined the forums I tried to make this argument , I did not get very far, but I do agree with you.

You can do all you want to a truck to make it more capable, but a 3/4 ton is a 3/4 ton with a certain rating, a 1 ton is a 1 ton with certain rating , nothing changes that . We can discuss this all day ,and nothing is going to change the ratings of the two. As far as I know you can make a truck more capable, but you can't give it a higher rating. Your peace of mind might change, but the door sticker remains the same.

[Dave Nowlin]

All I have to live with is my conscience. If my F-250 is as capable as a F-350 with the Firestone Airbags in it, that's good enough for me. There is an extra bonus here as well. It will ride better empty than an F-350. I'm not a full timer by any means. We normally take 2 trips that are 2 weeks long to Florida each year. The rest of the time the truck is run unloaded unless it's towing something like my bassboat or 4wheeler trailer.

[Art-n-Marge]

I went through all this and have a successful F-250 conversion to an F-350. It required not only springs BUT larger wheels and tires because the OEM tires only supported the F-250 weight ratings. As stated by Air bag manufacturers, they will not increase the weight ratings, however Ford specifications of springs and tires will! Just like the trailer salesmen sold some of us more trailer than we can tow, some air bags salesman will tell you air bags will increase weight ratings and that's not true according to the fine print.

I found that in some cases, Ford produces F-250s with F-350 spring packs. I have a neighbor when I was doing a comparison and with what I found out, he HAD the F-350 springs and got the larger wheels and tires from a friend and voila, he has an F-350 for private use and he didn't know it until I showed him the data - he has no desire to certify since his truck is for private use, too, but he was glad to hear he has more GVWR, RAWR and CGVWR for that Toy Hauler he's looking at (14,000 GTWR). He was afraid he would have to settle for something much smaller.

Using the same engine, trans and other components is NOT a good argument unless you are trying to eliminate the differences that cause the lesser weight ratings to justify doing what your doing. Your choice, but a weak argument when it comes to liability. There are many other components to consider besides the ones you mention and for a 2006 Ford to go from an F-250 to an F-350 it was just an overload spring and the tires/wheels. Your truck may vary!

My choice was to become compliant and I did this legally by using the correct components. If I want to rent my truck for commercial reasons then a certification will be needed to get a new pillar & VIN to do so, but the physical components are in place. I chose not to do this because it was gonna be expensive and the DMV fees were going to go up. If I do, I can make a 3/4 ton a 1 ton. It is possible and starts with the right components and for me only a new pillar label and registration (i.e. "show me the money").

All experts will say to stay within weight limits (All Salesmen and some service personnel are not experts), everyone else who doesn't is doing whatever they like. I can tow my current Monty, but I can't tow the newer ones because it's my choice to stay within weight ratings and the newer ones are heavier. I know that and will stick to what I've got. If something happens to this Monty, the next one will not be a new fully branded Monty, but there are lighter submodels of Monty like the High Country and Mountaineer, or an SOB.

This topic will come up again and it still gets discussed in other Forums just as much. There's no way to stop this discussion because every day new owners don't know about these things, and want to learn whether they want to be compliant or not and the more experienced will present their experiences.

[seanjackmc]

Weight Advisor or Police?? Really there is nothing better to talk about. Guess Ill jump in! Seems like everyone just loves to give their own opinion. Who cares what your neighbor is doing. As long as they arent putting you at risk leave them alone. At the end of the day I dont care how big or small your truck is. A crappy driver not paying attention is lot more dangerous than the badge on your truck which says 250 or 350 or 2500 or 3500. All these trucks are very capable these days. I went from a 2010 250 to a 2011 350 and towing 13k there is no difference other then the model years. I know my 350 isnt going to get me out of a jam if I come down a steep grade too hot and lose control. Nor would having a drw. Knowing the limits of your equipment is what makes a difference. We've all see the guy with the brand new f450 and 40ft suite doing 80 down the highway, I d much rather see a smart driver pulling 20k with a yugo. You get the idea. So sick of hearing about trucks and wheels and door stickers and state laws and "experts" and 250 vs 350 and what your buddy saw wrecked on the highway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way as already stated in most states you can pay for and change the gvwr on trucks. Shows you exact and important those initial rating are from the moco.
Have fun towing what you tow, be safe, alert and smart!
On a good note CAMPING SEASON IS VERY NEAR
STM

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by seanjackmc

Weight Advisor or Police?? Really there is nothing better to talk about. Guess Ill jump in! Seems like everyone just loves to give their own opinion. Who cares what your neighbor is doing. As long as they arent putting you at risk leave them alone. At the end of the day I dont care how big or small your truck is. A crappy driver not paying attention is lot more dangerous than the badge on your truck which says 250 or 350 or 2500 or 3500. All these trucks are very capable these days. I went from a 2010 250 to a 2011 350 and towing 13k there is no difference other then the model years. I know my 350 isnt going to get me out of a jam if I come down a steep grade too hot and lose control. Nor would having a drw. Knowing the limits of your equipment is what makes a difference. We've all see the guy with the brand new f450 and 40ft suite doing 80 down the highway, I d much rather see a smart driver pulling 20k with a yugo. You get the idea. So sick of hearing about trucks and wheels and door stickers and state laws and "experts" and 250 vs 350 and what your buddy saw wrecked on the highway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way as already stated in most states you can pay for and change the gvwr on trucks. Shows you exact and important those initial rating are from the moco.
Have fun towing what you tow, be safe, alert and smart!
On a good note CAMPING SEASON IS VERY NEAR
STM

Now, that is what I call good common sense! You said it very well. Thanks.

[richfaa]

I like the There is no difference between the 3/4 and 1 ton truck then go on to state what the differences are. The primary difference is Cargo capacity/carry capacity and is directly related to pin weight of your 5th wheel.Air bags will solve the problem but not change the specs and the air bag makers will say that. We have air bags on our F-350 Dually but not because we are out of any spec but rather we want to keep the truck/camper level.

If one is within specs any truck any camper the discussion is moot. If one chooses to use airbags because they need more carry capacity that is fine and will solve your problem..... IF there is a legal issue it may come up at a later time. If not...you done good.......

My take is that one day there will be weight enforcement of Rv's because there is money in it for the various Governments and so many of us run out of many weightv spec's.

It is just our personal choice to stay within ratings and spec's in all areas and hope that those who do not cause us no grief.

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

I like the There is no difference between the 3/4 and 1 ton truck then go on to state what the differences are. The primary difference is Cargo capacity/carry capacity and is directly related to pin weight of your 5th wheel.Air bags will solve the problem but not change the specs and the air bag makers will say that. We have air bags on our F-350 Dually but not because we are out of any spec but rather we want to keep the truck/camper level.

If one is within specs any truck any camper the discussion is moot. If one chooses to use airbags because they need more carry capacity that is fine and will solve your problem..... IF there is a legal issue it may come up at a later time. If not...you done good.......

My take is that one day there will be weight enforcement of Rv's because there is money in it for the various Governments and so many of us run out of many weightv spec's.

It is just our personal choice to stay within ratings and spec's in all areas and hope that those who do not cause us no grief.

I would not be surprised for some states to change laws for a money grab. Hopefully Texas will not be one of those. I would think it might have an adverse effect on tourism dollars from out winter Texans. IIRC, the population quadruples here in Rockport in the winter. They inject lots of money in our local economy.

[Fire5er]

Had a Ford salesman (very young guy) try the "There is no difference between the F250 and the F350" statement on me when he didn't have the F350 I wanted on the lot, but had a similar F250. So I asked him why Ford made the two different trucks, wouldn't it be cheaper for Ford just to make one. He said Ford made the two different trucks because some people wanted 3/4 tons and people want 1 tons, but there were no difference in the two. I told him to look and the sticker on the door and to tell me what the cargo weight capacity was for the two different trucks he had on the lot, and then started to explain the difference to him as I quickly got in my truck and left the lot...he obviously didn't know his product or what he was talking about.
It's all about the numbers.