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Old 12-07-2005, 08:53 AM   #41
RADHAZJOE
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fulltimedreamers web site link is excellent.
 
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:33 AM   #42
mobilrvn
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Guess we're in the anti-autoformer camp. Obviously from the responses, some think that there is a "free lunch" out there. The voltage increase comes from someplace, not thin air. That increase is at the expense of fellow campers for the most part. Guess that I might be very unhappy with owner of an autoformer which damaged my equipment. This is why they are banned in many campgrounds. This is a problem for the campgrounds to resolve, not the campers. Complain about the power and leave, if necessary (after a refund, of course). Make sure when you sign in that the power is sufficient for your needs. A voltage meter is a must. I check the power at the site before unhitching.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:04 AM   #43
Glenn and Lorraine
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Glenn, unless I'm mistaken (Fulltimedreamer could clear this up), this setup has two twist plugs, one on either side of the autoformer, that he can quickly, and easily, unplug... and then reconnect the plugs together (one is male, the other female), bypassing the autoformer.

Maybe it's not as easy to change this back and forth as my impression was, though. Where are you, Lamar? I know you're a busy guy.
You are correct but they are not "twist" but rather the standard 3 prong 30 AMP male on the end of a short cord and 30 AMP female socket on the Autoformer itself. Autoformer would have you plug their box into the CG's electric and the trailers cord into the Autoformer.

I kinda sorta modified my trailers cord. I measured out 48 inchs from the twist plug on the 30AMP cord that came with the trailer and cut it. At this point I added a 30AMP male which can be plugged directly into the 30AMP female on the Autoformer. I than added a 30AMP female to the remaining cord. The Autoformer's 30AMP mail will plug into that female and that cord will continue to the CG's electric. If I am not using the Autoformer I merely plug the trailers cord back together.
By doing this I can place the Autoformer under the trailer and still reach the CG's electric.
I believe the 50AMP is the same with 50AMP M/F plugs

One other point when buying the Autoformer. Also buy a length of chain and a padlock. The chain goes through the handle of the Autoformer and through the trailers rear stabilizer and is locked. This keeps the Autoformer on a leash so that it can't stray off during the night.

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Old 12-07-2005, 10:24 AM   #44
Glenn and Lorraine
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mobilrvn

Guess we're in the anti-autoformer camp. Obviously from the responses, some think that there is a "free lunch" out there. The voltage increase comes from someplace, not thin air. That increase is at the expense of fellow campers for the most part. Guess that I might be very unhappy with owner of an autoformer which damaged my equipment. This is why they are banned in many campgrounds. This is a problem for the campgrounds to resolve, not the campers. Complain about the power and leave, if necessary (after a refund, of course). Make sure when you sign in that the power is sufficient for your needs. A voltage meter is a must. I check the power at the site before unhitching.
First of all the Autoformer is boosting the voltage by it's own little transformer and NOT taking any further voltage from the parks electric. You can't take more than what the park is giving you and typically it isn't the park but rather the power companies fault for the low voltage. Their lines on the poles are old and outdated and cannot handle the draw of today's modern homes and appliances. The CG we stayed in near Allentown Penna had all new electric service installed within the past 2 years. But the power companies lines outside of the CG were antiquated and could not handle the loads and not just for the CG but an area of over 10 square miles. This information came directly from the power companies lineman that responded to a pole transformer fuse tripping. Guess what the cause of the tripping fuse was?
I also know of no CG that does not allow the use of Autoformers. At least none of the campgrounds where I have had the need to use it. In fact it was the CG Owner at the Penna CG that recommended the Autoformer to me in the first place.
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:37 PM   #45
RADHAZJOE
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No, it does not take more voltage but yes it does take more current.
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Old 12-07-2005, 03:15 PM   #46
ols1932
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by RADHAZJOE

No, it does not take more voltage but yes it does take more current.
Just 1 1/2 amps.
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Old 12-07-2005, 03:29 PM   #47
mobrownies
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We just finished a three month tour of the northeast states and found many campgrounds that prohibit the use of autotransformers. The autotransformer does draw more current which in turn lowers the voltage. So everbody on that circuit experiences a drop in voltage. It also costs the campground more for electricity. Good for the guy with the auto, but not so good for everybody else.

In some cases the power company does have voltage problems on lines in rural areas, but I would say that most of the problem has to come from campground wiring being too small for the run lengths used.
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:09 PM   #48
dsprik
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OK, this is about as clear as mud... Everyone is all over the board on this. Do we need to bring in an outside expert???

Mike, do these campgrounds have this posted, or is in the fine print when you sign in? I've never seen anything posted like this either.

I haven't seen anything discussed here yet that has convinced me not to buy (or include in a bid) a 50 amp autoformer (or autotransformer?). But this obviously muddies the water when I thought it was a non-issue for me. Did not know it was this controversial.
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:20 PM   #49
ols1932
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We've been all over the lower 48 and have never, ever, in over 5 years of full-timing been in a park where autoformers were not allowed. But I guess we probably missed some. If it were me, I'd go with the autoformer, preferably 50 amp. If, by chance, a campground told you that you couldn't use it, what are they going to do, kick you out. No, they want your money.
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:52 PM   #50
dsprik
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So... just theoretically... if you have a CG with poor wiring and ALL the campers are using autoformers... do you blow all the windows out of the CG office and catch the surrounding woods on fire??? Seems like someone on the line will pay for this. This is just in "theory" mind you.

*On edit ~ OK, I know we have some sensitive MOCers here, so I just wanted to add to my "theoretical" situation that the CG host manning the office was able to dash out just in time to avoid the devastating explosion and escaped unhurt, "but shaken", as they say in the media. Hate to get any "hate" mail because I insinuated someone got "fried" (Oops.. insensitive word)... I mean "motally injured".
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Old 12-07-2005, 05:55 PM   #51
fulltimedreamer
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Hey Guys,

Let me jump in here. Dave asked earlier if I could unplug my transformer as it is installed inside. The answer is yes. I cut into the #10 Romex just before it entered my breaker box and installed both a male and a female connector. I plugged my autoformer into the female connector that goes back to the shore power box. I plugged the male connector that goes to my breaker box in the coach into the female connector. This is the same as plugging the autoformer into the shore power box and plugging the coach into the autoformer. Either way the autoformer is wired in series with the power going to the coach. If there is a problem with the autoformer it can be removed and the afore-mentioned male and female plugs can be connected to each other so power would come directly from the shore power box.

At its heart the autoformer is a transformer with one primary winding and two secondary windings. The secondary windings provide a 1:1 or a 1:1.1 ratio. The windings are engaged depending on the voltage detected. With appropriate voltage the 1:1 windings are used. In a low voltage condition the 1:1.1 windings are energized which steps up the voltage by 10%. There are no moving parts so there is nothing to wear out on the autoformer (Well maybe a solenoid but they should run for a long time.)

As to "stealing" power from others this is a myth. Note one of Ohm's laws - Power = Current x Voltage.

Let's say we need 3600 Watts of power to run your A/C and mirowave.

Scenario 1: A 30 Amp, 120 Volt shore power connection provides 3600 Watts of power. Everything is great.

Scenario 2: If the voltage drops to 110 Volts you can only get 3300 Watts out of the shore power box (110 Volts x 30 Amps = 3300 Watts). If you try to use more than 3300 Watts the breaker will trip on the shore power box because for example 3600 Watts = 110 Volts x 32.7 Amps. The happens because you are requiring more current to do the same work with the lower voltage. The breaker will normally trip due to limiting current to allow only 30 Amps.

If the breaker did not trip, at this point your A/C and Microwave are not getting all the power they need to run efficiently as the power needs of the A/C and Microwave have not changed. Since they are not supplied the 120 Volts they need, they draw more current (Amps) to acheive the same work (Watts). As more current is drawn the motors and wiring begin to get hot because their current rating has been exceeded. As the wires and motors heat up the resistance is decreased. Another one of Ohm's laws is brought into use here. (Power = Current squared x Resistance). This will very quickly spiral out of control unless a breaker is tripped due to the over current condition.

In the real world things are not so cut and dry. A low voltage may not be severe enough to cause the breaker to trip, but the motors and other elecrical devices are still getting too warm which shortens the lives of the equipment and may be a fire risk due to over heating.

Bottom line, the power needs of my coach (Watts) remain the same whether the voltage is as it should be or not. The power used is measured in Kilowatt Hours. The only way my power use affects the other campers is if my breakers trip which results in more power available for everyone else. If I step my voltage up using an autoformer I am protecting my investment in the electrical system of my coach. I choose to protect my coach and actually use less power because my systems are all running efficiently. I am not dissapating power as heat in overloaded wires.

BTW, I pay for the power I am using when I rent a site. Until all campgrounds fix their problems I will continue to use my autoformer. Campgrounds have a responsibilty to their customers to work with their local utlities to correct power problems.

Sorry for the long post, I hope it was helpful.

12-8-2005 Edited to correct a couple of typos
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Old 12-07-2005, 06:09 PM   #52
dsprik
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Thanks, Lamar! That was great!
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:53 PM   #53
Glenn and Lorraine
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by fulltimedreamer

Hey Guys,
Sorry for the long post, I hope it was helpful
Thank you, Thank you, Lamar. IMO there is nothing to be soory for.
I will be adding your post to my data bank of information. Never know when this subject will come up (and it will) again.
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Old 12-08-2005, 01:51 AM   #54
ols1932
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Lamar,
You said it all!
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Old 12-08-2005, 07:14 AM   #55
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Finally, an explanation I understood, Hughes should put it in the User's Guide. Thanks a lot!
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Old 12-08-2005, 09:44 AM   #56
RADHAZJOE
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Well, Lamars post was long, full of correct technical info, but ended in a wrong conclusion. I have a masters in EE and 43 years experience. I am tired of going over it and will, offline, over the next few days, write a white paper on RV wiring and CG wiring. Until then, hope you all don't trip too many breakers.
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Old 12-08-2005, 09:55 AM   #57
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Damn, just when I thought it was becoming understandable. I guess this is why I'm not an electrician. Here's where a smiley face with hair on end would be useful.
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:14 PM   #58
dsprik
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Well, looks like the experts disagree. Let's try this... any non-technical MOC members out there EVER have a problem with their autoformer - with tripping breakers, other campers yelling at you, or CG managers telling you, "NO!" (or any CG offices blowing up)?

I think it's time to hear from those who don't know that P (W) = V x A (I), AND don't care (even though I do care). I'd like to hear from people who have actually fried their A/C or Micro, or who use an autoformer with success, but don't really know how it works. Any takers...

Real life experience trumps a book everytime. You still gotta have the book, but it has to be a background guideline. You have to flex with real-life situations. Don't even try to tell me, engineers and technically trained professionals, that you have NEVER come across any situation that was NOT in the book... more than once? I am one... and I have... several times (dealing with oilwell blowouts is not a good place to pull your book out - common sense and instinct, combined with book smarts, will keep you and the crew alive - either from an explosion or poison gas - and keep a million dollar rig from being destroyed). When I was at engineering school in Houston, they told us when we graduated that we now needed to throw the book away because that was NOT what we were going to see in "real life". This was kind of a sarcastic way of letting us know that we would definitely experience situations that are not in the book, and that we need to be flexible and be able to adapt..

So... what I'm trying to say is that I believe that real life experiences from non-techies with autoformers would be valuable at this junture.
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:29 PM   #59
RADHAZJOE
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Right on, dsprik. This I agree with you on. May I also confess that I have only been fulltiming for 8 months now, all around at least 24 states. I have encountered one CG that said they had 50 amps and good voltage. But voltage dropped to 105 and my AC would not work. I was tempted to buy an autoformer then but we just moved on. I am not against autoformers, just understand that power cannot be created. I hope we also agree that going with less than a 50 amp autformer for a 50 amp RV is dangerous.

By the way, I had a 200 amp buck or boost transformer in my stick house, but we never drew more than about 130 amps. That was the old way of doing it before autoformer technology.

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Old 12-08-2005, 03:56 PM   #60
fulltimedreamer
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I'm sorry if I have stepped on anyone's toes here. It was my intention to be helpful to those who were considering the purchase of an autoformer. As I have noted, we have a 30 AMP autoformer and it has performed as advertised. Since installing the autoformer we no longer have issues with breakers tripping when operating our air-conditioning, washer/dryer, refrigerator, television and converter simultaneously in parks that have low voltage at the pole. When these loads are present I am at the high end of what a 30 AMP service can provide. Without the autoformer something has to be turned off. While I stand behind my previous post, I will defer to the information provided on the Hughes Autoformer web site http://autoformers.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How Does It Work
Don't get caught with your voltage down!

At first we are tempted to say very 'well'. But this may not be the answer you are looking for!
Autoformers are used in industries to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of equipment. The Autoformer has 5 windings: 2 primary and 3 secondary. All models have surge and spike protection. When the unit is in Automatic and the park or input voltage is 116 volts or below, the output is 10% over the input. When the input is over 118 volts, the output is 2% over the input.

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.

What it is doing is changing the voltage - amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV

An Autoformer running at full output (50amps) will use 1 amp, but will cause appliances to cycle more often and run cooler. This will use less total power from the park.


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