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Old 10-27-2012, 05:37 AM   #21
Ozz
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About 1-1/2 years ago, I did my suspension work. I called the axles supplier and talked to someone there, as I wanted to upgrade my capacity. I had welded brackets and posts, so I had the entire Montana 3400RL up in the air. I was going to change axles and springs.
The guy there told me the 6,000 and 7,000 axles were the same, just had lighter springs and a different compound on the brake shoes.
So, I ordered 4,000# springs for the drivers side and 3500# springs for the passenger side and put them on. I did the wet-bolt and X-factor deal at that time, as well as the new wheels and the Goodyear self shredding tires.
This year, I went to a truck spring shop and added an extra heavy spring on my truck, left the Timbrens on, but they don't even touch now with the extra springs. Running Michelin tires.
My current weights are as follows:
Steer axle: 5300#
Drive axle: 7140#
Trailer axle: 13780# That is 3445# per trailer tire.
Gross weight: 26220#
Cat scale; Flying J, $10.00 fee, went up from $9.50 last year...
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:40 AM   #22
Irlpguy
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Allen in MT here is what I determine from your posted weights:

If the weight of your combined RV + TV is 21,840 and you subtract the “axle” weight of the RV only on the scale at 11,280 that leaves you with 9560 for the weight of the TV and the Pin weight.
If the actual scaled weight of your TV is 7760 as you state, then that would make your Pin weight 1800 lbs. That just does not sound correct at all, I would guess it is over 2500 lbs.
You need to confirm the weight of the TV by scaling it, if the hooked up Gross is 21,840 and you deduct the weight of the TV you will determine your Pin weight.

At this point you are “NOT” overweight on your RV since your RV is rated at 13,960. If your figures are correct the camper only on the scale was 11,280 that would leave you 2680 lbs of additional CC (Carrying capacity) on the RV axles.

Keep in mind the Pin weight is “not” calculated into the GVWR of the RV but “is” used to calculate the GVWR of the TV. If your Dodge is a single axle it is likely rated at around 10,100 lbs GVWR. My ’01 Dodge Dually is 11,000 lbs

The certificate of origin for my 2012 3402RL said the dry shipping weight was 12,980 lbs, the rated GVWR is 15,800 which theoretically leaves me 2820 of CC (Carrying capacity).

My suggestion, if you are really concerned: Load you RV and TV for travel, weigh the RV with only it’s axles on the scale, if you are under the rated GVWR for your particular RV then you are ok on the 5th wheel.
Now since you will have scaled your TV prior to this, weigh the TV with both of its axles on the scale, hooked up to the RV, that will give you it’s total weight including Pin weight. If that does not exceed the GVWR of your Dodge then it is also ok. You can accurately determine your Pin weight now as well.

Just a newby on the forums and only my observations. Also no signature or pretty stuff yet, still need to figure that out...
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:51 PM   #23
8.1al
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"Keep in mind the Pin weight is “not” calculated into the GVWR of the RV but “is” used to calculate the GVWR of the TV"

I beg to differ with you, the GVWR of a trailer "is" the total weight of the trailer. What is on the axles and what is on the pin added together. Some people feel that if the weight on the axles doesn't exceed their rating then it doesn't matter what the rest of the trailer weighs.

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Old 10-27-2012, 06:27 PM   #24
bobcat92
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We weighed ours on a cat scale with the truck and trailer. Got the weights for the steer axle, drive axle and trailer axles. They have sensor pads for each on the scale so it is a one shot deal. Paid $10. Went and dropped the trailer off in the truck stop parking lot. Went back to the scale and weighted the truck by itself and got the steer axle and drive axles weights. Cost $1 to get the second run. Once you have these two you can find out all you ever wanted to know about the weights. The ones I have been at have an intercom and I tell them it is a pickup truck and fifth wheel. The first time I used the scale and went back for the pickup only the attendant said I can't see you on the camera and you are to lite to be a Semi Truck so I am assuming you are the truck with the fifth wheel! The intercom button is designed to be pushed when you open a semi truck door so either take along a short stick or be ready to jump up to push the call button. My wife laughs at me each time we go because I have to jump up and push the button! LOL She said it looks like a little kid trying to get to a light switch.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:05 PM   #25
Irlpguy
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You are correct Charlie the trailer GVWR does include the entire weight of the trailer, but perhaps I did not say what I was trying to get across very well. So lets have another go at it. Using my Monty as an example. My 2012 3402RL has a GAWR of 6750 lbs per axle, therefore those 2 axles are rated for no more than 13.500 lbs. But wait a minute the GVWR of this same unit is 15,805 lbs, a difference of 2305 lbs. If I am not to exceed the GAWR of the trailer axles the difference between the GAWR and the GVWR must be born by the towing vehicle and it’s hitch, and is therefore added to the weight of the TV. (Pin weight)

I have never weighed my Monty, but according to the certificate of origin it’s shipping weight was 12,980 lbs, that is dry weight. With a GAWR of 13,500 then I could only add 1520 lbs before reaching the rated carrying capacity of the axles. What we must keep in mind is the total weight is distributed between the trailer axles and the weight at the pin.

When we load our trailer to head down the road, what we add in weight will be distributed between the trailer axles and the Pin depending on where the weight is added.

Now consider my Dodge dually, its GVWR is 11,000 lbs but its GAWR is 12,700 lbs, that is 5200 lbs front and 7500 lbs rear. Since most of the Pin weight is on the rear axle of the TV, making it unlikely we would exceed the capacity of the front axle, then as long as I do not exceed the 7500 lbs GAWR of the rear axle or the GVWR of the TV, then I am ok “legally”.

Once you are loaded and ready to go, you have added 2 more axles to the equation, those being the TV axles. It really does not matter what the total weight of your Monty is, as long as the weight on your trailer axles does not exceed their capacity, since the difference between the trailer axle weight and the total trailer weight will be added to the TV, through the hitch (Pin weight) and as long as the addition of that Pin weight does exceed the TV’s capacity, then you are legal and likely quite safe.

For us pulling trailers, the thing that should be of greatest concern, is that we don’t exceed the capacity of the trailer axles or the axles of our TV. Doing so greatly increases the risk of blow outs and other problems, notwithstanding the legal aspect.

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Old 10-28-2012, 07:24 AM   #26
Round Mound of Sound
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Do you have water in your tank?
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:04 AM   #27
Allen in MT
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I guess with all the ad on's to the 05 3400rl that could have brought the total weight up a bit,
We don't run with water in the tanks.
Not fully loaded to travel (clothes, some food, computer, etc)
Here are the new weights from todays scale. me, wife & dog not included.
13960 GVWR on trailer placard

Hooked up to 5th wheel
4420 Front axel on scale
21720 RV & TV on scale
17200 Rear axel and RV on scale
11240 RV axels only on scale

14040 RV only Not hooked up

7720 Truck only Not hooked up
4500 Truck front axel
3160 Truck rear axel
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #28
Irlpguy
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I am not sure that 100 lbs or so makes a big difference in the big picture Allen but your numbers do not add up.

I just today scaled my TV – ’01 Dodge dually, Full fuel but also minus the wife and dog and 200 lbs of tools and misc yet to go in.
Front axle – 4607 lbs
Rear axle – 3505 lbs
Both axles on scale – 8113 lbs

The total of the front and rear TV axles should be the same as the weight of both axles on the scale, mine was the same, yours is 60 lbs different (7720 – (4500+3160) = 60)

I also note the front axle weight “hooked up” was 4420 lbs however it was 4500 when you scaled the truck alone. The front axle shows 80 lbs lighter when hooked up????

When you scaled the complete unit you show 21,720 and the trailer alone was 14,040. The difference there is 7680, this should equal the missing weight of the truck, however your truck alone weighed 7720 that is a difference of 40 lbs.

If you add the “hooked up” front TV axle weight to the TV rear axle and trailer axle weight (4420 + 17,200 = 21,620) This should be equal to the complete unit weight of 21,720. There is 100 lbs difference. Perhaps the “hooked up” front axle weight was 4520 and not 4420 which would make more sense and clear up a couple of weight differences.

If you take the trailer weight alone at 14,040 and subtract the weight of the trailer axle only at 11,240 that should equal the weight on the pin, however at 3800 lbs that seems way too high.

It appears that you are unable to scale the truck rear axle alone while hooked up, that would sure make it easier to calculate your actual pin weight, now that you know the weight empty.

My next step will be to weigh my unit hooked up in this fashion – 1) Front axle of truck. 2) Rear axle of truck. 3) Trailer axles. The scale I use is at a truck stop and is certified correct but because it is short it will only weigh one axle at a time or both the axles on my truck, it is not long enough to weight the complete unit.

Not sure when I will be hooking up to do the next step but will post the results when I have done them.


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Old 10-28-2012, 11:49 AM   #29
Allen in MT
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Yes I wondered about the wt diff also. this scale is just one big long single scale. Might have put more of the rig on scale when weighing front axel only and same with back.
Will have to wait till we head south and try a flying J scale where I can weigh all 3 axels at tone time.
I do apprecialte the replies you folks have come back with.
I have never woried about it in the past. Its just the weight of camper by its self being over the placard listed weight that got me to wondering. If all the extras were added at the factory it was at the max limit.
thanks again.

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:17 PM   #30
RonD
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Allan, in your first post you wanted to know how your weights looked, as I read the post, first I owned the very same truck as yours, they pull the Montana just fine, but are you concerned regarding the Legal weights?, if so, I cant comment on your Montana, others can, in our case we have a 3075, it has a rating of I think 14500 pounds,. yours sounds fine to me at 14040, and you will be more when fully loaded, the second part as mentioned is axle weight, if you have 6000 pound axles, your under there, last is the Dodge part, I recall the gross is 9900 pounds on that truck, your at 10480, add more fuel, a little more pin weight when fully loaded, and another person or two and your a few hundred pounds over at best, also the GCVW of the package I think is 21,000 pounds per Dodge, so your over there also, I had the same problem and got a bigger truck.
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:00 PM   #31
Irlpguy
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Allen if you still have it or can find it check your Certificate of Origin from Keystone. That will give you the weight of the unit when it was shipped from the factory. It will also list the GVWR. That is valuable information, the GVWR should be the same as what is listed on the vehicle sticker.

A whole lot of people are overloaded and do not realize that they are (legally that is). I, like you want to know where I stand. Our units should compare somewhat in weight but won't be exactly the same. Also if you check the sticker that gives the Tire information you should see a GAWR for each axle, combined they represent the GAWR (carrying capacity) for those axles.
Also good information to know and have on hand...

Glad you brought this topic up, gives us all plenty to think about and consider. Hope I don't need a bigger truck I like my old '01 Dodge..

I will try and get an opportunity to scale my 3402RL as soon as I can, we are not heading anywhere till end of January.
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:46 PM   #32
ray fischer
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Allen, I have the original spec sheet on the 2005 CTD. 3500 SRW. If you have the 373 rear end you are rated at 6010 RAWR and 21000 GCWR. If you have the 410 rear you are at 6200 RAWR and 23000 GCWR
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Old 10-28-2012, 04:04 PM   #33
Allen in MT
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ray fischer

Allen, I have the original spec sheet on the 2005 CTD. 3500 SRW. If you have the 373 rear end you are rated at 6010 RAWR and 21000 GCWR. If you have the 410 rear you are at 6200 RAWR and 23000 GCWR
The sticker on the door of my truck says that My rear axel has a GAWR of 6200 lbs. This 1 ton should handle the Monty just fine . Who would one call at Keystone to get a copy of the Certificate of Origin?
Just found the 2005 Montana Broucher that lists the different models
It states the 2005 3400RL has a Gross Dry Weight of 11380lb and a carring capacity of 2390lb The hitch is 1770 (is this already added to dry weight) Hi-Gloss fiberglass option will add 600lb. That brings it to 13750lbs and this is for standard equipment only, and that is before any of the other options which is loaded on and I have a GVWR of 13960,
thanks again for your time
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:16 PM   #34
8.1al
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The gross dry weight listed in the brochure is for a base trailer and includes the pin weight. If you add extras, front air,Hi-gloss fiberglass,slide toppers this is added to your dry weight and reduces your carrying capacity. The factory has said that the 600 lb.figure is too high for the Hi-gloss.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:32 PM   #35
Irlpguy
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I am looking at the Montana specifications for 2012 on a printout I made from the Keystone website when I bought my unit a year ago, it shows the 3402RL shipping weight at 12,893, however the “Certificate of Origin” shows the shipping weight of my specific unit at 12,980 the difference is 87 lbs.

The “certificate of origin” goes to the dealer when they purchase the unit from the manufacturer. If you did not get a copy when you purchased your unit then you might not be able to get one now. Having said that, Keystone may have the information in their database, or the dealer where you purchased your unit may still have that on record. The only value of this certificate is you should then know what the unit weighed when it left the factory with all the options on it. That weight might be a fair bit higher than what it shows in the brochure, depending on the options you added at the factory.

The sticker on the door of my ’01 Dodge dually shows: GVWR 11,000
GAWR – Front 5200 – Rear 7500
But the “total” weight of my Dodge loaded and ready to go with wife and dog and the pin weight of the Monty cannot exceed the GVWR of 11,000 lbs regardless of the GAWR, or I am overweight.

My daughter has a 2008 Dodge 3500 dually short box and her GVWR is only 10,500 but shows the GAWR – Front 5200 Rear 9350 she cannot exceed 10,500 or she will be overweight.

What is the GVWR on the sticker on your ’05 Dodge Allen?
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:58 AM   #36
Allen in MT
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My 05 dodge 3500 single axel is
GVWR 9900
GAWR Front 5200
GAWR Rear 6200
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:01 AM   #37
mhs4771
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Just to give an example of the difference between Brochure dry weight and real shipping weight. Our SOB has a Brochure weight of 12700, it shipped from the Factory at 13700 and that's before adding my 40 Lb propane tanks, the combo washer/dry they forgot to install and our Winegard SK3005 SlimLine Dish. So our dry weight before even adding a paper plate is approx 14000.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:58 AM   #38
Irlpguy
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This morning I weighed the tool boxes and golf clubs that will go into the tool box in my truck bed. The total of them was 100 lbs, I have a Doberman dog, so I am allowing 200 lbs for her and the wife, so I am calculating an additional 300 lbs to add to the scaled weight of my truck at 8113 + 300 = 8413. My GVWR is 11,000 so I have an additional carrying capacity of (11,000 – 8413) = 2587. Therefore when I am hooked up the weight on the hitch of my truck cannot exceed 2587 or “legally” I would be overweight.

With your Dodge Allen, your GVWR is 9900 and your scaled weight with you in it was 7700 lbs so you have (9900 – 7700) = 2180 before being overweight. If you add the wife and dog and you are full of fuel and add another 200 lbs then you are down to 1880 lbs that cannot be exceeded on your hitch without being overweight “legally”.

I would suspect that many of us are overweight and do not know that we are, I suppose that fact only matters if you get stopped and are made to scale the unit. The Highway safety branch here in this Province set up quite often and although they pay more attention to Horse trailers and Commercial vehicles, they also scale RV’s as well, especially if it looks like it might be overweight. I need to consider that when hauling here and want to be legal.

Although the legal aspect is really important to me, even more important to me is that I don’t overload the axles on the Monty. This of course includes the tires in that equation, I do not want to blow a tire or break a spring because I am overweight.

I have seen 3402RL’s being pulled by 2500’s and while the engine, trans combination may be quite capable of pulling the unit, it for sure will be overweight “legally”.

I just read on another forum a chap say “Just get the biggest engine available, that will increase your GVWR”. This was “not” said tongue in cheek, I am still shaking my head at that stupid comment.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:35 AM   #39
Allen in MT
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I called customer service & talked with Kara Parish a pleasant friendly lady. I told here what I was looking for and with the Vin# she pulled up the Monty. It is a list of everything the Monty left the factory with and weights???.
Our Monty left the factory with the Moving to Montana Package, the Value Package & the Artic Insulation Package. She said the Monty has a GVWR of 13960-- exactly what it say on the sticker.
Now the info sheets states that the shipping weight is 11580 which is 200lb more than what the 05 Montana broucher lists 11380lb before options. Here is what I recieved

Item 3400RL
GVRW 13960
Shipping weight 11580
UVW 11280
CCC 2680
Hitch 1960
Dry Axle Weight 9620
GAWR 6000/6000
Exterior Length 37' 9"
Exterior Width 8'
Ext Height - Top of A/C 12' 11"
Fresh Water Capacity 60
Waste Water Capacity 38
Grey Water Capacity 76
LPG Capacity (lb)60
Tire Size 235/85R16E
Tire PSI 80
Rim Size 16 X 6
# of Lugs 8
Rim Type S/A
Hitch/Axle % 17%
Weight Figures new way
Date of last weigh 11/4/2004
Gooseneck Height 60 1/8"
Hitch Rating 15500
Configuration 10" I beam
Frame Paint wet coat
Wheelwell Type none
Spacer 0
Hanger 3
Axle Type straight
Spring Mounting over LCI
Slide System HydraGear
---------------------------------------------------
Decor - Montana 05: Desert Sunset
Moving To Montana Package
Value Package
Arctic Insulation Package
Central Vacuum
Washer Dryer Prep
Ceiling Fan
Generator Prep
Hydraulic Selector Valves
Neo-Angle Shower w/ Glass Enclosure
Fireplace
Fantastic Vent Fan - Kitchen
Wire & Frame for 2nd Air Conditioner
10 Cubic Foot Extra Large Refrigerator
Aluminum Wheels
Exterior Shower
Hi-Gloss Fiberglass Sidewalls
18" Metal Slide Tray
Free Standing Dinette and 4 Chairs
Hide-A-Bed Sofa
End Table and Lamp
High Back Desk Chair
King Bed
Onan 5.5 Generator

With all these options I can see why before I'm loaded (not me ) the camper is already close to the GVWR
I thought alot of this was added after the fact but was instead at the factory.
I do have the 4 slide awnings, 2nd air and probably a few extra things not mentioned here
This has been very challenging trying to figure all these weights. More just out of curiosity than anything.
thanks again
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:17 PM   #40
Irlpguy
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Well now you know far more than you knew before making your original post in these forums Allen. It is great to now have all that information.

I think it is highly likely you will be somewhat overweight on your unit Allen, but I am not sure that a couple of hundred pounds matters all that much as far as the safety of your units. I have no idea if the agency responsible for weights and things on the highways in the US ever bother with recreational vehicles or not, if not, then you likely have nothing to worry about.

I will restate that I would bet there are a whole lot of units heading down the highways that are overweight in the “legal” sense and I am sure some are also overweight with respect to safety issues as well.

I know that prior to my leaving here this year for Arizona I will know what the weight of my unit is and if it is “legal” or not.

For interest sake my Son in Law just bought a 2012 – Dodge 3500 Laramie crew cab short box single wheels. The GVWR for that unit is 10,100, his wife, (my daughter) ’08 dually is rated at 10,500. They are both under the 11,000 GVWR of my ’01 dually. Guess I had better hang onto old faithful.

After phoning the government weigh scale here and asking them some questions, I checked my License and Insurance and my truck is licensed for a GVW of 11,023 lbs and the Monty is licensed for a GVWR of 15,805 lbs, so both are licensed for their highest rated GVWR. The gentleman that I talked to told me that if I was to be checked by their mobile unit or had to submit to a weight check, they would weigh the truck front and rear axles, then the trailer axle and combine those weights, they would compare that total to the total of the rated GVWR of the truck and trailer added together to determine if I was overweight. The same way they do on commercial units.

I do not think your time was wasted in finding out all the information you now have Allen, I would be interested in your final numbers, I will post mine here in the forum when I know them. Good luck and happy trails.
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