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Old 12-29-2008, 02:42 PM   #21
sreigle
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If I may add a word of caution about filling all the openings in the bellypan with styrofoam. I did that in our 2003 Montana but after thinking it through I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

Please keep in mind this is just an old mind trying to muddle through this. I am not an expert. However, I have experienced the airflow from that 2-inch furnace duct into the belly. There's a lot of airflow coming through there, heated air. That incoming air has to replace colder air being pushed out of the belly. Otherwise the pressure builds up and that inhibits the airflow of hot air from the furnace duct. That cold air escapes from those holes in the belly. If we plug them up, where is the cold air going to go? I'm sure it'll find an outlet but it may seriously impede the flow of hot air into the belly. Thus I'm not so sure that plugging holes is the way to go.

Again, just a thought from a non-expert mind.

By the way, although the Arctic Package insulation blanket is thin, it's also foil covered. The thinness leads us to believe it's not effective. I don't have facts but read somewhere that it's a whole lot more effective than we realize. I wish there were more than just that, like more insulation in the sidewalls and under the slides, etc., but the insulation blanket in the belly is really pretty good in my opinion.
 
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:54 AM   #22
richfaa
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It is called "reflectix" and can be purchased at Lowe's or Home depot. I would not take the word "Arctic" seriously but the reflectix is effective. We did plug up some of the holes in the 3400, not all of them.There were some pretty big holes under the bathtub and kitchen sink. There are enough Places for air to seep through where circulation should not be a big problem but it is necessary. We did seal around the perimeter of the under belly but that was a lost cause as we had to drop the under belly more than once due to problems, leaks, wiring, etc.

We are in South central Florida. It is not at all cold but it is a bit windy today. We are at the PC desk in the 3400, doors and windows closed, no vents open, When the wind gust we can feel air movement around our feet and the leaves on Helen's plants are moving... Hummmmm

Many folks have lived in these things in the coldest of weather and did well.....We will not be among them..
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:39 AM   #23
goin2themountains
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Just because I happen to have a Montana Brochure on my desk (yes, I am only minorly productive today), in the specs pages, there is a section titled "Zero Degree, Montana is a zero degree tested and approved for four-season living so you can enjoy your Montana Fifth Wheel year-round". Under that it lists: Vented attic, Enclosed heated dump valves, Enclosed heated holding tanks, Insulated water lines along furnace duct, Digital thermostat, Heated toilet room, Arctic insulation package with higher R-values, and Enclosed low point drain shut-off valves.
The sales person we are working with for our new Montana stated to me "they almost all come with the Arctic package", but I don't find very much info other than the one line from the brochure I quoted. Dunno if this helps, or I just bring up more questions?
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:42 AM   #24
mopar1
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That's interesting. I wonder if all the heated things they list are just because of the duct blowing heated air down there?
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Old 01-22-2009, 03:16 AM   #25
Delaine and Lindy
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mopar1 I think your close. Our Cambridge had good insulation, and had the Artic package. We also had heated tanks, and each tank had its own switch. I never used them, in most 5th wheel they have heat piped into the basement area. We are in Zephryhills Florida near Tampa and our shore line froze last night but I unhooked and just use water from the fresh water tank. The basement compartment is just as warm as the living area. I think the R-factor is the key to holding heat or cooling inside the coach. Our R-factors are Roof 25, Side walls R13 and the the Floor R27. I think our 3 1/4 wall has made a huge difference as for using propane. But the lose of heat and cooling is thru the slide outs were the R-factor is much less. While at the Tampa RV Show I seen one 5th wheel that was tested to 14 below, and had less R-factor than we have. Our Cambridge done very good but also had good R-factor, and was easier to heat and cool than the Everest 343 we had. I do believe the Cambridge was way ahead of its time. If not for Katrina I think the Cambridge would have survived, but it was a money issue that destroyed the Cambridge. Heating and cooling a RV of any brand isn't easy. GBY....
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Old 01-22-2009, 04:41 AM   #26
richfaa
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We are in a 06 3400. it has been very cold the last few nights was 26 degrees last night here in Florida near Disney(we want our money back) The temp is set at 70 Degrees. I think this is the coldest weather we have ever seen while living in this 3400... We were NOT warm and toasty.
Try doing this. We were chilly while sitting on the couch in the large slide. I felt the wall along the couch..it was cold so I put the thermometer on the wall..it measured 62 Degrees.At the time the outside temp was 44 Degrees. Last night i put the thermometer on the wall at the top of the head board. When we turned in at 12:30am it was 37 Degrees outside and the wall was 60 degrees .Lot of good dual pane windows would do even IF they worked.Give it a try..shoot some inside wall temps...anywhere. So to warm and toasty I say.....blfittzzz...

Oh..just turned around and picked up a thermometer Helen had put on the floor in front of the Couch in the main slide....It reads 60.5 Degrees. Temp is set at 70..furnace is runing.. inside temp on the counter is 72.3..outside temp reads 61.3..
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:59 AM   #27
mopar1
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We have been doing some early spring camping. The temps have been in the low 40's. I can now say that I would not want to live in my Montana in the winter time. We kept the inside temp at 70* and still froze. Too much radiant cold coming in the windows and walls. The bedroom slide out has the bed in it. So not only is that colder than the normal walls it also has windows on both sides of the bed.
In a week we went through a bottle and a half of propane. Woke up Easter morning at 5:00AM to no heat and no full bottles of propane. Why is it that we always run out of propane at night? Anyway I guess it was Gods way of making sure we made it to church on time!
I went back home to get the bottle off of my gas grill so we could get ready for church in semi comfort.
Lessons learned:
Fill the tank when it is empty when I switch over.
Do not plan on being as comfortable @70* in the camper as it is @68* in the house.
Be happy that in this economy God has blessed us well enough to let us camp!
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:44 PM   #28
Dean A Van Peursem
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We have had our late 2006 3400RL in freezing temperature and ours does have the "Arctic Package" . If the "Arctic Package" is really helping I sure wouldn't want to live in one w/o the package. We had the outside water line(hose) freeze but nothing inside the RV. I suspect the underbelly was quite a bit warmer than 32 degrees since the furnace was running almost continuously. Two 7 1/2 gallon tanks of propane were used in 10 days. And this was in AZ. I've also tried to patch over areas in the underbelly where I thought warmer air might be escaping but due to several water leak repairs and a cracked black tank replacement some of that may not be very effective any more. One can feel internal air currents develop near windows, etc in very cold weather. The place that I have noticed real cold the most is under the computer desk. It became bad enough that I added a supplemental portable electric heater there to keep my feet warm. So the conclusion we have come to is that we wouldn't want to try to live in it very long in sub freezing weather especially if it was windy. However, I do suspect that outside temps could probably drop many degrees below freezing before the internal pipes would get cold enough to freeze while the furnace was running but am not sure how comfortable it would be for humans. Somehow, we also missed the "Warm and Toasty" option when we configured our unit. If we travel in sub freezing weather we make sure all the pipes and water heater are drained and all the tanks are empty except the Black tank which we throw a little RV antifreeze in. We don't feel safe running the furnace while traveling. So far we haven't winterized the pipes or the traps primarily because it is usually less than a day that we travel in sub freezing temps. YMMV.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:45 PM   #29
Art-n-Marge
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HA HA HA.... They got me on that piece of "option"!

I got the "Arctic package" on my 5er. It just happened to be on the rig. It means I got a nice chrome-like sticker by the entry door and that they could add a few dollars to the price like it was some kind of incredible option that not everyone gets.

I don't recall the exact details per se, but it refers to the under belly covering (which most of you have anyway), some parts that are insulated "more than one might expect" (you've got that too refering to the way the pipes and tanks are inside and not exposed) and all the water lines have drain valves to facilitate winterizing (you've probably got that too). Big Wow! My impression is that MANY rigs have all this stuff anyway and it's just a way to fake out this Southern Californian into thinking I got something special and cool and I might use ONCE to make it worth it.

Not that I have ever needed to use it since I live in the DESERT and have never used the rig in a wintry environment so far! Where I live, the only time the temperature gets to freezing is about 2 or 3 times per year but only in the middle of winter and at night. Since it never snows here that means the temp is always above 32. Oh yeah, we had ONE day when we actually got morning frost on our windshields. Of course that would be the only day I had to leave early to attend Jury duty. Do you know how long it takes to scrape off ice using the edge of a credit card on my Ford F-250 windshield? I was almost late.

I have never used my drain valves for winterizing. Maybe I should. It would be one of those 2 or 3 nights that would crack something open. I do keep the fresh water tank at about 5 gallons and drain the hot water heater so I have not thought about it. Well maybe I should but it's too late for this winter. I hope I remember it next winter.

Regards,

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Old 04-22-2009, 02:52 AM   #30
mopar1
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Maybe it's the "Arctic in the summer time" package?!
In a bind you can use a CD case to scrape light frost.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:58 AM   #31
Art-n-Marge
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It's time for a lesson in thermostats.

The thermostat measures the AIR temperature AT THE THERMOSTAT and no where else. So for most of them they are located in the wrong places but there is no right place anyway as you'll see from my explanation.

A trailer even with the best walled insulation has a problem with keeping cold air out. The number of slides compounds this even further because of the thinness of joints which is only a layer of rubber next to wood or metal. Until recently most windows are only single pane. This can be improved with some window coverings, but we forget that insulation is just that - insulation. It does not add heat, it just reduces the affect of whatever the outside temperature is. And over time the insulation will HELP keep the interior temperature warmer or colder or something in between what's outside and what's inside.

Also, the heat registers are on the floors because heat naturally rises. That means temperatures on the floor or lower parts of a trailer will be lower. Guess what? If you could reach the ceiling the temperatures and measure that, it would be higher than expected. The furnaces in our trailer and stick houses will just improve the air we move around in. The walls, floors, and ceilings will be affected by the other adjacent factors (exterior, insulation, gaps, location, distance from registers, air flow etc.)

My hugemongous 4 slideout, 37' long, 9 foot interior height Montana furnace runs a lot more to maintain temperature than our single slideout, 27' long 7 ft interior height travel trailer we had prior, since the area is SO MUCH LARGER.

Lucky for me I keep VERY WARM no matter the temperature and because my exterior body warmth is far above average - it drives everyone crazy when I sit outside in a very cool day in my polo shirt and sweats and everyone else has to wear jackets and gloves. But you can imagine what happens to me in hot temperatures.

I remember one time that I was setting up my tent trailer in 0 (zero degree) weather at about 1:00am in pitch black at the Grand Canyon in December dressed in only a white polo shirt, jeans, but thick socks and heavy boots. Fortunately the campground was virtually empty (gee, I wonder why) and I move pretty quiet. I didn't put a sweater on until I was done, and no longer moving.

Oh-oh I am digressing. After all this forum topic is about the "bogus?" Arctic package. The bottom line is don't worry about it. Package or not our rigs are far better than any tent or popup offerings out there right now in comfort and convenience. Set you thermostat for an AVERAGE comfortable setting throughout the rig. This might mean 64 (like for our case) or 74 (like in my brother-in-law's rig (Keystone Everest). There is NO perfect singular setting. btw - his Everest has all the same Arctic-ness as my rig but he doesn't have the chrome sticker at the door. Go figure.

See you all!
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:52 AM   #32
1952maxine
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We just bought a 2010 Montana 3585SA and love it. We are from North Dakota and plan to go south to Texas/Arizona area in late January/February for about a month. I would really appreciate a detailed explanation of how to prepare the Montana for the trip. How far south do we need to go before we can put water in and use it as usual? How do others in the north winterize their rig, i.e., blow the lines out or use RV antifreeze? We were told that blowing the lines was sufficient and then putting RV antifreeze in the drains? Also if you run antifreeze through the faucets, can you still drink out of them once you flush them, and if so, how much flushing is required before the water is safe to drink? The dealer told us it was safe to drink the water from the rig if you only blow the lines out, but he never said anything about if you antifreeze them. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about the whole procedure as this is our first year getting away with a 5th wheel. We want to take very good care of it since it is such a beautiful rig and want to be sure we do everything correct. Thanks to anyone who assists me with these questions.
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Old 08-27-2009, 05:41 AM   #33
Mrs. CountryGuy
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1952maxine

I have a WINTERIZE the house list that is fairly detailed, if you EMAIL me, I will send it to you.

We run pink thru the entire system, in spring, rince out VERY good, several times, then a smidgin of bleach in the fresh water tank, fill with water, run that through. They say the pink does not hurt ya, but, we don't drink water from system, ever.

From Michigan we get to Missouri, Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama, before we take out the pink and put in the H2O. Some of my old web pages may talk about this in detail, you could look there. IF they say the temps will be around 45 or above during the day, we put in the water.

Others will have great ideas for you, stay tuned. Enjoy the time away!!
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:34 PM   #34
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we blow the lines out with air and then put the "pink stuff" in all the drains and toilet bowl. No problems and as you know we get below zero weather here in Nebraska. if we go south for winter we do as Carol suggests- -no water in tanks until above freezing outside.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:43 PM   #35
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Hi, I hope I won't offend anyone by joining in on your conversation since I am a kissing cousin with my Everest. You folks have lots of good discussions. In my own case we use our ceiling fan to stir the air up and move the warmer air down to lower elevations. Our thermostat is located on the outside of the bathroom wall and takes a double hit from the warm air in the bathroom and warm air moving UP into the elevated bedroom. In order to keep the lower level at 70 degrees I need to set the thermo to 74 or 75. I also installed an adjustable register in the bedroom so that I can keep it cool (which is the way we like to sleep). We also use a small electric heater to heat just the bathroom when we're getting up and around while leaving the rest of the unit at a lower temp which we then crank up a little when the wifie is ready for breakfast. Alos use afghan blanket when just sitting around watching tv or reading.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:56 AM   #36
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Were not offended and thanks for jumping in, we enjoy have new ones and your welcome hope you enjoy this site as it does have a great amount of discussion on everthing on camping.................WELCOME
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:46 PM   #37
stimpy123
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Gang,
I appreciate the instructions and information about the Artic package. I was told that the 5er was tested with 0 outside temp and the inside could be maintained at 70. I wonder now, because it seems as though our furnace runs much of the time, with the thermostat set at 69. Most of the time even at night with the thermostat set at 65. Most of the time meaning that upon the time the furnace starts (blowing cold) through the firing time and cool off time, it works for about 10 minutes, and then it is off for about 5 minutes. I wonder if this fan motor is able to work that long without trouble. I like the idea of the closable vent, as that is what we did in our former stick house. I wondered if anyone had experience with the double pane windows. We don't have them and in our previous SOB, I had to put the stretch plastic on the inside of the windows to keep the rig somewhat comfortable. Maybe will have to purchase the pillows for the vents and put the plastic over the windows, since we go through a 7lb bottle of propane every other day.
Thanks again for all who have contributed to this topic.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by stimpy123

Gang,
I was told that the 5er was tested with 0 outside temp and the inside could be maintained at 70.
It probably was, what they don't tell you is that the inside probably started out warm and the furnace ran continously. My experience, in temps warmer than 0, is that this thing is cold...period, and leaks air like a sieve.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:15 PM   #39
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TLightning,
I worry about the endurance of the heater motor. Just how long is it engineered to last with it running most of the time in the winter. This is our first real taste of cold, due to circumstances that didn't allow us to move to warmer climates until after Thanksgiving. Hopefully the GS extended warranty won't be needed to replace the furnace fan, since the rig is out of factory warranty. Just thinking out loud.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:50 AM   #40
TLightning
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I have no idea how long that fan motor will last. We run the furnace as little as possible (unless paying for elect), but use two Lasko portable heaters and the heat strip on the front A/C unit.
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