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Old 10-20-2012, 07:15 PM   #21
DQDick
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No question, it's an issue that should not be coming up as often as it does.
 
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:53 PM   #22
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We had flexing problems with our 2010 that Keystone JUST fixed last month, BUT the only thing they did was the veneer divider in the front closet. It was replaced with 1/2" material instead of the veneer again. They said that fixed the problem. Just seems to me there was/is more of a problem and a vener wall not "built right"
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:06 PM   #23
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Arcateq wrote:
Quote:
quote:We had flexing problems with our 2010 that Keystone JUST fixed last month, BUT the only thing they did was the veneer divider in the front closet. It was replaced with 1/2" material instead of the veneer again. They said that fixed the problem. Just seems to me there was/is more of a problem and a vener wall not "built right"
I am very new to these forums but have gathered a great deal of information and knowledge, thanks to everyone for that.

Having read the thread on Frame Flex I decided to check my 2012 today, I hooked up to the unit and went into the closet to check the paneling where there was a crack on the wall between the closet and the doors on the right side. As I lowered the fifth onto the hitch the paneling bulged and the crack became more pronounced. There does not appear to be this issue on the left side of the closet. The “flex” issue cannot be addressed by putting heavier wood in this location. Perhaps during assembly, flex wasn’t taken into account and this piece of paneling is simply a poor fit.

My unit goes to the dealer on the 16th of this month for other warranty work, this issue will be added to the ever growing list of concerns. I will not accept that the problem has been solved with the simple replacement of this piece of paneling. I want to know what is going on and how much frame flex is acceptable.
Tomorrow I intend to do the measurement as described in the Lippert “Upper Deck Flex Measurement Instructions”.

Prior to reading these forums “I was blissfully ignorant of these problems”…
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:16 AM   #24
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Well I spent some time today measuring and inspecting my 2012 – 3402RL, I have come to the conclusion that it is little wonder there are flex problems and broken welds and on and on.
My unit is basically empty, no clothing in the closet or drawers and nothing in the vanity so the only weight in the upper deck is the factory installed equipment.
There is a lot you cannot see when looking for possible problems, but I have taken the Lippert .png of their frame and identified the size of the main frame components. See picture below.



As you can see my main frame is 10” not 11 and certainly not 12. The drop in the frame then goes to 8” both I-Beam of course. The compartment for the generator and batteries is framed in 2 x 6” tubing and 2 x 3" tubing. On the top front of this compartment is a 2 x 3" tube extending beyond the compartment to the width of the tank compartment. In the same place on the top rear of the main compartment it appears to only be 2 x 3 light wall channel.
The 2 x 6” tubing that extends out to support the upper deck consists of only the two pieces that are attached to,and welded to the 2 x 3. This deck has only 1 x 1 tubing running from the back of the compartment to the rear pin box support. There are no 2 x 6 “studs” (for lack of a better word)running toward the pin box except the one on each side.
I am not exactly sure how the 2 x 6 attaches at the back of the compartment but on the front it sits on that piss ass 2 x 3 and is welded to that. See next picture.



This picture shows where the upper deck frame is welded and supported and I have put a line to where I think the most likely flex point would be. Now there is lots of potential for flex in other area's as well but to me this is just designed to fail. I am not a professional welder but I have done a fair bit in my day, and I have never seen such crap welds in all my life. It is little wonder they are a problem area, contrary to what the factory might have us all believe.

I also today took the measurements as prescribed in Lipperts instructions and I have 1/4" of flex with no additional weight in my upper deck area. What kind of flex will I have when loaded and go over some of those lovely dips on the interstate, the vision scares the heck out of me, especially after seeing what little support there is for the upper deck and seeing the unacceptable welding.

At 75g the Montana is not an entry level RV. I am very upset with what I am finding with this unit and to learn I am not alone in what I have found.

I would love to have had the opportunity to visit the factory prior to buying my Montana. A lot of time is spent on displaying and exhorting the things that dress them up, but what about that which we cannot see. Now where to go from here.

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:21 PM   #25
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Good job Iripguy.

Your flex points I think are correct for the location of possible problems. My 3075 had one of the welds break where the 1 inch tubing is welded to the 2x3 tubing. It looked like they did not use enough heat. Anyway after I had it rewelded and a gusset added where it broke i still had a small amount of flex. I think once it breaks the steel tubing has flex induced to it. If it happens on my new one I will have more reinforcing done throughout the area.

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:25 PM   #26
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The sad thing Chip is these are expensive units and we should not have to be worrying about this kind of problem. There are things over which we have control like tire pressures and the like. These things simply should not be an issue for the new owner.

I want to drive down the road knowing I have taken care of the things I can and "not" have to worry about poor design or workmanship. We purchased this unit to get away and enjoy a relaxing time, not be on pins and needles waiting for the hammer to drop.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:00 AM   #27
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I agree! I didnt realize that this design was prone to flex. If I had I would not have bought it. I would have just kept fixing the old one. Very disappointing!

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Old 11-11-2012, 01:29 PM   #28
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As mentioned before on another thread about frame flex, our trailer is at the dealer for this issue and I told them I want it fixed right or I do not want it back until it is. I will not tow something down the road that is unsafe and have to constantly worrying about something happening every time you hit a bump in the road
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:26 AM   #29
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Arcateq wrote:
Quote:
quote:We had flexing problems with our 2010 that Keystone JUST fixed last month, BUT the only thing they did was the veneer divider in the front closet. It was replaced with 1/2" material instead of the veneer again. They said that fixed the problem. Just seems to me there was/is more of a problem and a vener wall not "built right"
I am very new to these forums but have gathered a great deal of information and knowledge, thanks to everyone for that.

Having read the thread on Frame Flex I decided to check my 2012 today, I hooked up to the unit and went into the closet to check the paneling where there was a crack on the wall between the closet and the doors on the right side. As I lowered the fifth onto the hitch the paneling bulged and the crack became more pronounced. There does not appear to be this issue on the left side of the closet. The “flex” issue cannot be addressed by putting heavier wood in this location. Perhaps during assembly, flex wasn’t taken into account and this piece of paneling is simply a poor fit.

My unit goes to the dealer on the 16th of this month for other warranty work, this issue will be added to the ever growing list of concerns. I will not accept that the problem has been solved with the simple replacement of this piece of paneling. I want to know what is going on and how much frame flex is acceptable.
Tomorrow I intend to do the measurement as described in the Lippert “Upper Deck Flex Measurement Instructions”.

Prior to reading these forums “I was blissfully ignorant of these problems”…
Where did you get the measurement instructions? I have looked at Lippert's web site and haven't found it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:06 AM   #30
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I can't believe all of the responses to this issue. ALL I wanted to do is WARN those new owners that the august made montanas HAVE A PROGRAM!

IF YOU HAVE PURCAHSED A AUG. 2012 MONTANT CHECK YOUR INSIDE CLOSET...is it breaking down???? AND, a must is check your left front to check to see if the caulking is breaking away from the trailer. And, check WHEN checked it is ON the truck, that is when the left front side drops down.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:23 AM   #31
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Quote:
quote:
Where did you get the measurement instructions? I have looked at Lippert's web site and haven't found it.
Here is a link to the Lippert web page, it is one of the options listed.
Hope that helps Paul.

http://www.lci1.com/index.php?option...186&Itemid=114
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:57 AM   #32
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You guys need to cut Keystone some slack here. They have no control over the conditions we pull these trailers in. Those conditions include potholes and crappy roads as well as people overloading the trailers and driving them well above the safe speed limits. While I'm not making excuses for Keystone or Lippert for that matter, I'm pointing out that every story has two sides.

The important fact is not every trailer suffers from frame flex, and Keystone / Montana is known for bending over backwards to fix those that have issues.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:27 AM   #33
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Quote:
quote:Keystone / Montana is known for bending over backwards to fix those that have issues.
We are having a recurring issue with the front closet paneling breaking. Our unit is a 2009.



I sent Aram a polite email asking for his assistance and received a call from a customer service representative this morning who is urging me to have it inspected by a dealer and Keystone will pick up the tab.

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Old 11-13-2012, 12:09 PM   #34
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Quote:
quote:
I sent Aram a polite email asking for his assistance and received a call from a customer service representative this morning who is urging me to have it inspected by a dealer and Keystone will pick up the tab.
Here is what mine looked like with no weight on it, it bulged considerably in the area of the crack when the weight was on the pin. It is one of the things I will have the dealer address on Friday when I take the unit in for other issues.



I sent an email to Keystone a couple of days ago and have had zero response. Who is Aram?
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
quote:
You guys need to cut Keystone some slack here. They have no control over the conditions we pull these trailers in. Those conditions include potholes and crappy roads as well as people overloading the trailers and driving them well above the safe speed limits. While I'm not making excuses for Keystone or Lippert for that matter, I'm pointing out that every story has two sides.

The important fact is not every trailer suffers from frame flex, and Keystone / Montana is known for bending over backwards to fix those that have issues.
Until proven otherwise, I am sure we are all willing to cut Keystone slack with respect to how they deal with owner’s issues, since it appears they are more than willing to actually do something. However I will “Not” cut them slack with respect to poor engineering, workmanship and quality control, in that area they appear to not be deserving.

You are right Tom, the manufacturer has no control over where and how we drive and pull their product once we have taken possession of it, however if these units were not designed/engineered to be driven on American and Canadian highways, then they should take the wheels off and call them a “Park Model”. I was never presented with any limitations on what roads I could drive on when purchasing my Monty or the other RV’s I have owned. My Monty was pulled from the factory to the dealer here in my area, which is a distance of approximately 2200 miles. What damage may have been done before I put a mile on it.

I disagree with your last statement Tom, if all Lippert frames are built in the configuration they show on their website, then every Montana has frame flex. The design is simply not able to eliminate frame flex. I would guess that “every” fifth wheel built has some frame flex. On some that flex may be excessive or beyond what the manufacturer considers acceptable. On our Monty’s we do not know what that acceptable limit is (wish I did), but we sure know that Lippert has a document on their website that tells us how to check for flex in the upper deck area. I would guess they have done that because they are aware there is indeed flex in the upper deck, and they are providing a standard for measurement of that flex.

Both my wife and I love our Monty, however like most RV owners, when purchasing the Montana, my expectation was that my unit was built to a high standard, including quality materials, with higher than average quality control. I expected good engineering design to have been used in every aspect of the unit. That is why I bought a Montana. If Keystone had met my expectations, then I would feel comfortable in looking after the things over which I have control feeling safe in the knowledge that the manufacturer had done their job. That is all I ask whether from Keystone or SOB, sadly I do not have that warm cozy feeling.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:26 AM   #36
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Frame flex is a design flaw, and because of the time for repair and major work often required, unacceptable. Warranty work is nice but we bought our Montana to use, not sit on a lot. We have had three Montanas, are thinking about trading again and for the first time looking at other manufacturers. Keytone is now pricing their products up to similiar pricing with some of the higher end builders. Also, I have on occasion had problems with Keystone and Keystone dealers trying to blow me off, so their customer service does not get an A+ from me, particularly when it involves sloppy work that should have been caught during a QA/QC production process.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:42 AM   #37
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Thankfully I don't have this problem, but I wonder if it the fact that most 5th wheel hitches have no pivot from side to side. My B&W hitch has 7 degrees from center to each side and I have had it still try to twist the kingpin assembly when parked in unlevel campgrounds. Pulling into gas stations or parking lots has torqued the area too, just wonderin'.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:48 AM   #38
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I don't know why it is that most dealer service departments treat owners as if we are all just plain stupid. The dealer where I purchased my monty has mine in their shop for warranty. When I showed him the bulge in the closet and cracked panel he said, "oh that is easy to fix we just need to replace the paneling and make sure there is room for a little movement in the closet".

Some folks don't have this problem because there is sufficient room at that point for the expansion to take place without cracking or bulging the panel. Only after I had said that I was well aware of the issue with flex in the upper deck was he willing to admit that this was indeed the case with all units.

At my insistence they will be taking measurements as prescribed by Lippert to determine if my unit has flex "HELLO, really". At the same time I informed the service manager that I expected a copy of their measurement results, and that I wanted to know what Keystone consider is normal and allowable. The service manager has no idea that I have already made these measurements and will be comparing their results with my own.

As has been stated by others on this forum, these frames flex, there is no way around that with the design they employ.

I am also of the opinion that putting a heavier panel in the closet is not the solution, and will most likely move the problem to a different area of those cabinets in the nose. I made that opinion known in very plain English to the service manager as well.

My 20k Reese hitch tilts fore and aft as well as side to side, not many out there today that don't.

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Old 11-18-2012, 04:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Tom S.

You guys need to cut Keystone some slack here. They have no control over the conditions we pull these trailers in. Those conditions include potholes and crappy roads as well as people overloading the trailers and driving them well above the safe speed limits. While I'm not making excuses for Keystone or Lippert for that matter, I'm pointing out that every story has two sides.

The important fact is not every trailer suffers from frame flex, and Keystone / Montana is known for bending over backwards to fix those that have issues.
I would like to offer a slightly different view from yours. Keystone has the responsiblity to design and build RV's that will stand up to the road conditions we have in the US. If they don't, they are doing a diservice to their customers. Owner abuse excepted. But.... Keystone has had frame flex issues all the way back to at least the early 2000's including our 2006 3400RL. Our unit has not been abused but at the time of the frame flex showing up, it had about 13,000 miles on it. I suspect the real issue is that Keystone is building units that are expected to only have a few thousand miles on them in their useful lifetime. Not building them strong enough for more extensive usage. Keystone does not put a mileage limitation or road conditions limitation in their warranty statement or sales documents. Therefore heavy users are going to probably have to deal with many more problems than the typical weekend user that the Keystone trailers are built for. So the real problem is Keystone.
The same issue comes up everytime we discuss failures on Chinese made ST tires. Several members will say that the RV must have been overloaded, or going too fast or tire pressure too low. When in fact the real problem was a POS Chinese made tire.
So lets address the real problem and that is the RV hasn't been built to handle the rigors of roads that are encountered in some areas of the US. Having a good record of responding when there is a failure is admirable but I know most RV owners would have much preferred to have never had the problem to begin with. Building the RV right the first time is the only solution.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:11 AM   #40
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Our new unit goes in to a dealer today for that closet wall cracking. Also my caulking is separating along the edge of the upper deck.

I checked the flex "per lippert instructions" and only have 1/4" movement. So maybe I have side to side flex causing this separation of the caulking.

I called keystone and they have been good so far. We will see how the dealer and keystone interact.


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